Stream: t-compiler/meetings

Topic: planning meeting 2020.06.05


nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:01, on Zulip):

Hey @T-compiler/meeting -- planning meeting!

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:02, on Zulip):

Announcements

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:04, on Zulip):
nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:05, on Zulip):

But apart from that we have a pretty minimal list this time around

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:05, on Zulip):

shall we track whose doing which by assigning those meeting proposal issues?

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:05, on Zulip):

I'l take compiler-team#267

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:06, on Zulip):

OK, I'll do #287

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:07, on Zulip):

Two other meetings that need some notes/minutes:

note that I think it's just fine to push something minimal with the write-up and links to the zulip-archive, though it's always nice to extract a bit more out ... any conclusions, major points in the discussion, etc

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:07, on Zulip):

I'm happy to do the write up for the CGU meeting

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:08, on Zulip):

In terms of the proposed meetings, we have:

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:08, on Zulip):

One question is -- should we close compiler-team#177?

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:08, on Zulip):

Like, we don't seem that eager to have a meeting about it

simulacrum (Jun 05 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

hm yeah, I think so

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

It seems like we're at a bit of a stalemate, there were some ideas to chip away at the problem (which I support) by looking for loop { }

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

not sure there's more to say at this juncture though

simulacrum (Jun 05 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

when it does go in I think at this point I'd prefer a MCP for changes in that area

simulacrum (Jun 05 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

(or just a PR perhaps)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

depends I guess on the scope of the change but yes that makes sense

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

was there an open todo item for compiler-team#177 ?

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:10, on Zulip):

our last comment was that we were going to write a blog post

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:10, on Zulip):

which @simulacrum did

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:10, on Zulip):

and that we were going to have some comments on an internals thread

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:10, on Zulip):

which was done

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:10, on Zulip):

(do we have a tracking issue for this btw?)

simulacrum (Jun 05 2020 at 14:10, on Zulip):

hm I think so

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:10, on Zulip):

(it'd be nice to compile links to all these things and ideas for future reference)

simulacrum (Jun 05 2020 at 14:11, on Zulip):

https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/28728

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:11, on Zulip):

side note that I feel like having this meeting proposal and revisiting it periodically has sort of served a "keep talking about this long-standing issue" function, it's kind of a gap in our current set of meetings :) I'm not sure this is precisely the issue I would choose to use that mechanism for in general though.

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:12, on Zulip):

so maybe we can update that tracking issue with links and notes and close the meeting proposal

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:12, on Zulip):

it is getting the reduced frequency effect

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:12, on Zulip):

i.e. i've talked about having ways to say "visit this topic every month instead of every week"

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:12, on Zulip):

and this is basically doing that.

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:12, on Zulip):

right

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:12, on Zulip):

(having the meeting proposal just sitting there)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:12, on Zulip):

I'm just sort of observing that it's useful and I could imagine it being useful for other things

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:12, on Zulip):

maybe to some extent in place of the periodic WG check-ins

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:12, on Zulip):

or in addition to

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:13, on Zulip):

but as you say, it also would be better to encode that in other ways than a meeting proposal for a meeting that's never going to happen

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:13, on Zulip):

i.e., a focus more on the goals that the team (via project groups etc) are supposed to be achieving

simulacrum (Jun 05 2020 at 14:13, on Zulip):

yeah, it does seem perhaps useful. certainly there's a chance it'll spark someone's interest to go implement minimal set (e.g. loop {} only or so)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:13, on Zulip):

or on long-standing issues

simulacrum (Jun 05 2020 at 14:13, on Zulip):

we could perhaps have something like the lang team "bucket of ideas" that's been talked about?

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:13, on Zulip):

that's an interesting question: Should we have a "long standing soundness bugs" wg?

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:14, on Zulip):

no

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:14, on Zulip):

I guess that could just generalize to "long standing bugs"

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:14, on Zulip):

because we don't ahve the abndwidth for the ones we hvae :)

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:14, on Zulip):

true that

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:14, on Zulip):

anyway that .. kind of .. segues into the next meeting proposal

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:14, on Zulip):

(to be less flippant, maybe yes, if we had the right folks interested in it)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:14, on Zulip):

but I am not sure it's the right way to organize things

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:15, on Zulip):

(vs say issues in an area, and not just "all soundness issues")

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:15, on Zulip):

yeah its probably better for it to be something we talk about across the team, but just infrequently for each particular bug

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:15, on Zulip):

or per-area, as you say

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:15, on Zulip):

anyway

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:15, on Zulip):

so there is one meeting proposal then

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:15, on Zulip):

we are sort of planning to try and "prototype" via the windows notify group

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:16, on Zulip):

though we've not "pulled the trigger" on that yet

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:16, on Zulip):

but @Santiago Pastorino and I did all the work basically just have to go and merge PRs

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:16, on Zulip):

I do think this is still something worth talking about

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:17, on Zulip):

Though I wonder just what would be the best focus for the meeting

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:17, on Zulip):

I guess probably feedback on the general concept and how to organize it

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:18, on Zulip):

"plumbing" is an interesting area

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:18, on Zulip):

anyway curious to hear what others think; another option would be to delay till next round (July, in other words)

Santiago Pastorino (Jun 05 2020 at 14:19, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

I guess probably feedback on the general concept and how to organize it

yeah probably something like that is a good way to start

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:19, on Zulip):

I'm trying to decide if "plumbing" is too broad; is it acting as a catch-all? I guess we really should have people thinking about these deep bits of infrastructure

Santiago Pastorino (Jun 05 2020 at 14:21, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

anyway curious to hear what others think; another option would be to delay till next round (July, in other words)

this can also wait for sure, I may not know how our process works here but if we delay this, what our meetings are gonna be about? I meant, given the lack right now of other proposals

Santiago Pastorino (Jun 05 2020 at 14:21, on Zulip):

trying to understand how this really works :), I guess I'm missing something

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:21, on Zulip):

Also, can we take a moment to identify the main differences between "areas" (or "teams for an area") and "working groups"?

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:21, on Zulip):

Should "plumbing" really just be "the query system"?

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:21, on Zulip):

pnkfelix said:

I'm trying to decide if "plumbing" is too broad; is it acting as a catch-all? I guess we really should have people thinking about these deep bits of infrastructure

I think this is a bit in the weeds for the moment

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:21, on Zulip):

but might be a good question to discuss in the meeting

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:22, on Zulip):

pnkfelix said:

Also, can we take a moment to identify the main differences between "areas" (or "teams for an area") and "working groups"?

I think areas replace working groups

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:22, on Zulip):

e.g. I think part of intent is that working-groups should have 1. specific goals, 2. regular meetings, and 3. checkins at T-compiler meeting. Areas have ... none of those?

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:22, on Zulip):

areas replace all working groups?

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:22, on Zulip):

ah I misread that I think

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:22, on Zulip):

but there is a concept of project groups

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:22, on Zulip):

I saw it said "replace working groups that don't have specific goals"

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:22, on Zulip):

yeah basically that is what I mean

Santiago Pastorino (Jun 05 2020 at 14:22, on Zulip):

like diagnostics or llvm

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:22, on Zulip):

Do you intend for all areas (or "teams for an area") to have regular meetings then?

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:23, on Zulip):

no

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:23, on Zulip):

or only project groups?

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:23, on Zulip):

neither?

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:23, on Zulip):

I mean I think meetings are something people can do

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:23, on Zulip):

if they find it useful

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:23, on Zulip):

i see

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:24, on Zulip):

So I do understand that meetings can be a burden (in terms of coordination, and synchronization, etc)

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:24, on Zulip):

but if you default to "we don't expect meetings", then that might imply that people are instead expected to monitor the full contents of the associated zulip stream

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

(which, hey, maybe people were expected to do that anyway, what do I know)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

yeah maybe

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

I guess I dont' want to derail the meeting with a debate over whether meetings are valuable

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

but it does worry me

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

I think there might also just be a few leads

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

that keep things in their heads

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

and people check in with them

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

or tracking issues that are updated

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

okay

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:25, on Zulip):

Do areas get checked in on at the compiler triage meeting?

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:26, on Zulip):

ok, this is officially having the meeting now :)

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:26, on Zulip):

oh right

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:26, on Zulip):

heh

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:26, on Zulip):

Sorry, sorry, sorry! :laughing:

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:26, on Zulip):

that's why you said we were getting in the weeds before

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:26, on Zulip):

when there's only one proposal, its easy to fall into that trap

Santiago Pastorino (Jun 05 2020 at 14:26, on Zulip):

hehe, right :)

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:27, on Zulip):

okay, well, I think its fair to say that people are interested in teasing this apart

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:27, on Zulip):

and figuring out how to make it work

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:27, on Zulip):

Is it too late to file a meeting request for "survey results 2"?

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:27, on Zulip):

so that means, to me, that we should have this meeting, at some point

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:27, on Zulip):

since we don't seem to have a huge number of other meetings

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:28, on Zulip):

I don't object to an ad hoc "survey results 2" proposal

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:28, on Zulip):

@Wesley Wiser to be clear: This is about analyzing the results of the second survey, right? not revisiting the results from the first survey a second time?

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:29, on Zulip):

Uh no this was going to be about continuing the discussion from the compiler team survey

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:29, on Zulip):

It seemed like there was a lot of stuff that didn't get covered

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:30, on Zulip):

If there's not interest in continuing that discussion, that's fine. It just seemed we ran out of time.

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:30, on Zulip):

I see. @nikomatsakis what do you think about a second round on the compiler team survey? For that matter, do we need a second round on the roadmap?

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:30, on Zulip):

Hopefully not

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:30, on Zulip):

(sorry, dropped afk for a sec)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:31, on Zulip):

I tink a sceond round on survey would be fine

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:31, on Zulip):

if somebody wants to organize it so to speak

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:31, on Zulip):

i.e., pick the topics

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:32, on Zulip):

anyway so we have

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:32, on Zulip):

I think we should try not to jam pack it :)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:32, on Zulip):

so let's not do a second round on roadmap right now, I think we covered it enough personally, and I think the "areas" discussion also informs it to some extent

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:33, on Zulip):

i.e., areas is kind of about "how should we organize ourselves" and I think separating out the idea of "a part of the compiler where we are doing work" from "specific projects" is a good idea,

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:33, on Zulip):

and I think the right way to pick the set of projects is to strt with zero and then say 'let people propose the things they can lead'

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:33, on Zulip):

and not so much try to dictate what we do from top down

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:33, on Zulip):

because that's a way to get "unfunded mandates" it seems

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:34, on Zulip):

okay so now @Wesley Wiser has opened compiler-team#302

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:35, on Zulip):

(I filed compiler-team#302 for continuing the compiler team survey results discussion. If people don't want to continue that discussion, that's fine too :slight_smile: )

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:35, on Zulip):

one issue with a second round of survey results

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:35, on Zulip):

is that if someone other than niko or myself run it, then they will have to figure out its agenda without access to the original surveys

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:35, on Zulip):

which is probably fine; the main things were all transcribed anonymously in to the hackmd's that niko and i made before

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:36, on Zulip):

yeah I think all it takes is to pick one or two themes probably

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:36, on Zulip):

and run with it

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:36, on Zulip):

I think that's probably fine.

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:37, on Zulip):

ok so -- what 2 weeks

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:37, on Zulip):

is it wrong of me to feel like we don't need to have either of these meetings soon? Like we could take next week off?

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:37, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

anyway so we have

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:37, on Zulip):

I was going to suggest the same

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:38, on Zulip):

so if we do each meeting on the 19th and 26th

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:38, on Zulip):

its possible that the survey results meeting might inform the areas of the compiler one

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:38, on Zulip):

so I would suggest, if we do the survey II meeting

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:39, on Zulip):

then I'd suggest doing it on the 19th

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:39, on Zulip):

but I was careful not to volunteer to run that meeting in that message

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:39, on Zulip):

(or at least not to prepare it)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:40, on Zulip):

ok wfm

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:43, on Zulip):

does anyone here want to volunteer to prepare the survey results II meeting for the 19th?

Wesley Wiser (Jun 05 2020 at 14:43, on Zulip):

I can do that

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:43, on Zulip):

(I'm willing to help; I just don't want to be stuck doing it on my own.)

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:43, on Zulip):

okay great

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:45, on Zulip):

OK -- so we're settled on

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:45, on Zulip):

it's also true that @mark-i-m, @Santiago Pastorino and (to a lesser extent) I should try to do a write-up of the contributor survey take-aways

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:45, on Zulip):

(not all the free-form entries were public so we can't expose the raw data)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:45, on Zulip):

but anyway

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:46, on Zulip):

reviewing those might make for a nice meeting proposal for next round :)

Santiago Pastorino (Jun 05 2020 at 14:46, on Zulip):

yep

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:46, on Zulip):

I guess let's call the meeting then :)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:46, on Zulip):

Next steps:

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:47, on Zulip):

plus

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:47, on Zulip):

usually I do those things but if anybody wants to help with them I wouldn't mind :)

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:47, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis let me try to help with that

pnkfelix (Jun 05 2020 at 14:47, on Zulip):

I really need to get on top of learning how to do basic maintenance like this

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:48, on Zulip):

I wrote up the steps I do on forge at some point

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 14:48, on Zulip):

Thanks all for attending :heart_eyes: !

mark-i-m (Jun 05 2020 at 14:56, on Zulip):

btw, I've been keeping up a bit with the contributor survey results, and I am planning to do some sort of summary/writeup (it might take a while though, we're almost at 400 responses!)

mark-i-m (Jun 05 2020 at 14:57, on Zulip):

(which is more than I expected)

nikomatsakis (Jun 05 2020 at 15:48, on Zulip):

wow!

Santiago Pastorino (Jun 05 2020 at 15:49, on Zulip):

yeah, really surprised, I was surprised when we were around 200, now I'm double surprised :)

Last update: Nov 25 2020 at 02:00UTC