Stream: wg-governance

Topic: Meeting 2020-03-26


Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 25 2020 at 21:34, on Zulip):

Hello all,

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 25 2020 at 21:35, on Zulip):

I unfortunately will not be able to be at the meeting tomorrow. I had some things come up and haven't gotten to drafting the pre-rfc rfc just yet

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 25 2020 at 23:10, on Zulip):

And my conflict just got cancelled - I'll be there after all :)

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 16:59, on Zulip):

@WG-governance, meeting! React/or reply with :wave: to show you're present.

Meeting Agenda/Minutes: https://hackmd.io/ATj1rZJaRimaIfIWfAOYfQ

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:00, on Zulip):

:wave:

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:01, on Zulip):

Okay, I'll start.

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:02, on Zulip):

also, if we have time after the agenda is done I had two (non-urgent) questions

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:02, on Zulip):

I haven't gotten to update the project group RFC, other time sensitive work came up first and the since our last meeting covid-19 happened.

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:02, on Zulip):

Hey

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:02, on Zulip):

I plan to have it ready by the next meeting.

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:03, on Zulip):

I haven't done anything since last meeting either, though I'd like to carve out some time next week to do something concrete (it'd be nice maybe to walk away with a bit of a concrete goal there)

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:04, on Zulip):

Which actually leads us to our next item, which is domain working groups. Nrc just recently filed an issue to start the discussion. https://github.com/rust-lang/wg-governance/issues/46

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:05, on Zulip):

I saw that PR but unfortunately haven't had time to read it yet

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:05, on Zulip):

I'm actually not sure if that issue text is 100% accurate

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:06, on Zulip):

Which part?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:06, on Zulip):

Notably, I don't know if the CLI WG is inactive -- I know that @spacekookie was doing work to get things up and going again

Manish Goregaokar (Mar 26 2020 at 17:06, on Zulip):

have a Tc39 meeting rn but i do have _thoughts_ on that issue

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:06, on Zulip):

It's perhaps a minor point :)

Manish Goregaokar (Mar 26 2020 at 17:06, on Zulip):

which i'll post there

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:06, on Zulip):

Also nrc is @Nick Cameron on Zulip

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:08, on Zulip):

In any case this has been an "on again, off again" topic of discussion, and I'm definitely sympathetic to the idea that there isn't really a big need for "domain working groups" to be an official part of Rust at this juncture.

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:08, on Zulip):

Some time back I did a bit of "research" of a sort

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:08, on Zulip):

in the sense of sending an e-mail to all the different domain wgs

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:08, on Zulip):

to get information about what they're up to, how people feel, etc

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:08, on Zulip):

I don't think I ever got around to summarizing the results of those e-mails

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:08, on Zulip):

but maybe that would be a good "work item" for me to try and do before next meeting, and post to issue

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:09, on Zulip):

I think a good question for us to ask is "how should we have this conversation", maybe?

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:09, on Zulip):

Collecting input definitely seems like a good first step

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:09, on Zulip):

Meaning, whom do we involve, and how?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:09, on Zulip):

that is, the conversation about "what are/were our aims with domain wgs, have they been achieved, what have been the downsides, and could we achieve those aims in other ways that evade some of the downsides"

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:09, on Zulip):

Well I think maybe we should start with a bit of history someone knows it. What was the original motivation for domain working groups?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:10, on Zulip):

I can share

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:10, on Zulip):

Basically, my memory is that, when we were doing our first roadmap,

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:10, on Zulip):

we found a number of areas where it was clear we wanted to "make efforts"

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:10, on Zulip):

but also not entirely clear what those efforts should be, and it didn't seem like we had the bandwidth to pursue

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:11, on Zulip):

that is, we didn't a good idea of like "core rust folks" who would pursue those goals

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:11, on Zulip):

so we created the "domain working groups" as an experiment, the idea being that this would be a place to encourage consolidation and effort towards a particular domain, without having it be a goal of any "Rust team" to achieve something in particular

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:11, on Zulip):

separately, I could maybe ping @Aaron Turon and get his recollection, that's kind of how I remember it :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:12, on Zulip):

part of the idea was sort of that people would use domain wgs to explore an area and give feedback to teams on things they could do (e.g., extensions to Rust or whatever) that might help in this area

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:12, on Zulip):

or it might also be building out libraries or just encouraging communication

Manish Goregaokar (Mar 26 2020 at 17:12, on Zulip):

left a comment on the issue

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:13, on Zulip):

Manish's comment :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:13, on Zulip):

The Areas of exploration section of the 2017 Roadmap is I think the thing I was talking about

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:13, on Zulip):

ah

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:14, on Zulip):

I remember prior to the 2018 edition, there was some talk about doing some "curation" type activities of the broader ecosystem, finding a way to semi-officially recommend certain libraries so that std itself could stay fairly minimal but the Rust ecosystem could be more "batteries included". Was there any connection between that idea and the Domain Groups?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:14, on Zulip):

This was then expanded in the 2018 roadmap to the term domains

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:14, on Zulip):

No, that was a separate idea afaik, @BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:15, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

This was then expanded in the 2018 roadmap to the term domains

I guess this is when we made the idea of a "working group":

We will spin up a separate working group for each of these domains, reporting to the core team, and tasked with looking after the end-to-end experience in that domain and making recommendations to other Rust teams with decision-making power.

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:16, on Zulip):

Nell Shamrell-Harrington said:

Collecting input definitely seems like a good first step

the more I think about it, the more I think that a "retrospective" is a good place to start this --

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:16, on Zulip):

maybe not calling it that, but kind of trying to "set the stage" a bit

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:16, on Zulip):

that sounds good

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:17, on Zulip):

We could start a new zoom stream to collect the feedback and conversation

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:17, on Zulip):

s/zoom/Zulip?

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:17, on Zulip):

gah, yes

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:17, on Zulip):

in any case I already have a bunch of emails lying around :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:17, on Zulip):

so maybe it'd be good to start with that

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:18, on Zulip):

and then take it back to the folks -- I would think that #project leads (public) is a good place to start

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:18, on Zulip):

to see how much it "still rings true"?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:19, on Zulip):

I think what I would do is .. maybe find a block of time next week when I plan to go over those e-mails and extract out some summaries .. I can create a zoom room and anyone who wants to join in can do so ?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:19, on Zulip):

I'm not sure how much private stuff was in the e-mails, I'll have to check, I think it was mostly public :)

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:19, on Zulip):

sounds good

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:19, on Zulip):

(I'd prefer for things not to block on me, it just happens that I have the e-mails right now :)

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:20, on Zulip):

I should be free for something like that, though I wouldn't have much context so maybe that wouldn't be helpful

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:21, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) Well I think even just a summary of the feedback would be useful.

Manish Goregaokar (Mar 26 2020 at 17:22, on Zulip):

Yeah i think starting with the feedback is good.

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:22, on Zulip):

So it sounds like the purpose of the domain groups was to be "scouts" and now it sounds like it's evolved more to be spun-off groups so nothing that the core group doesn't have bandwidth to be involved with is seen as "blessed"

Manish Goregaokar (Mar 26 2020 at 17:22, on Zulip):

(sorry, might have missed things, i am double booked on meetings today and tomorrow due to a weird interaction between standards bdies)

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:22, on Zulip):

Before there was interest in visibility, and now visibility is less of a thing?

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:23, on Zulip):

Just summarizing what I'm hearing, which may be unnecessary as some historiography still has to be done?

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:23, on Zulip):

Well what i think about is, is that Rust is so much bigger now than in 2018.

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:24, on Zulip):

In some sense I think some of the original motivations are still true

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:24, on Zulip):

Hmm what do I mean by that :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:25, on Zulip):

I mean that those target domains are still important, I guess

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:26, on Zulip):

at the same time, it's not entirely clear to me how much the Rust org needs to be involved, there is some cost to trying to do a lot of things

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:27, on Zulip):

Right, Rust org involvement seems like the core question here - in particular, it seems we need to know what the benefit is

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:27, on Zulip):

Like in 2018 to me it felt only the Rust Programming Language org and community members were doing larger organization around building the Rust ecosystem, so I felt that there was more of a need. However today I feel more groups are self organizing or being organized by other larger entities.

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:27, on Zulip):

"officialness" brings some measure of authority and visibility but also creates some potential for friction

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:27, on Zulip):

visibility is nice... not sure authority has any benefit.

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:27, on Zulip):

Is it possible to foster voluntary visibility without officialness?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:27, on Zulip):

I've seen e.g. discussions around things like a "mail handling working group" for dealing with sendmail-like applications: I think it's a great idea to try and make a common set of software around that, but I don't really see the value of the Rust org being involved.

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:28, on Zulip):

I.e. it seems valuable for people interested in a domain to have a way to discover that a community group for that domain exists

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:28, on Zulip):

yes

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:28, on Zulip):

Yes, so I think we could potentially list groups

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:28, on Zulip):

this was sort of the "community group" idea that @Nick Cameron mentioned

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:28, on Zulip):

I think there is also value in helping give folks some structure

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:28, on Zulip):

one example that was brought up to me is the value in having a moderated forum to talk on

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:30, on Zulip):

btw I pinged @Aaron Turon briefly and they mentioned

I think that’s part of the story. But also in general we saw it as a kind of cross-cutting thing that needed to exist separately from the hierarchical organization. Where we could gather people around an end goal and they could work out what the gaps were and feed them into the normal team oversight structure

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:30, on Zulip):

which is a lot like project groups :)

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:30, on Zulip):

heheheheh

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:31, on Zulip):

So, maybe it's a question

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:31, on Zulip):

It would also be good to ensure that community groups are aware of "proper channels" for spinning up more "official" efforts. E.g. community groups could request project groups be formed when they identify something that they want Rust itself to change to support their domain

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:31, on Zulip):

one other challenge we've seen around forming domain working groups and the like:

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:31, on Zulip):

there is a need to have "leads"

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:31, on Zulip):

or main organizers

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:32, on Zulip):

and that's a hard role to recruit for

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:32, on Zulip):

that's kind of a general problem -- but it's more than just being hard to "Recruit" for,

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:32, on Zulip):

whenever we do things like say "who wants to lead this?" you often get people signing up where you're like "hmmm you may not be the best choice"

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:32, on Zulip):

which is also an awkward position to be in

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:32, on Zulip):

I think that for the project groups, this is a bit less of a problem,

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:33, on Zulip):

in part because of the idea of having a team liaison

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:33, on Zulip):

that is, I've been wanting to make it so that there is like a "pool of ideas" and we pick from that pool

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:33, on Zulip):

so it's not so much saying no to some ideas as it is saying yes to others

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:33, on Zulip):

Re: "you may not be the best choice" -

The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

-- Douglas Adams

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:34, on Zulip):

This has also come up for teams and handing off projects. I feel like some of this is, public GitHub issues are not the best place to take applicants.

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:34, on Zulip):

This is definitely true.

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:34, on Zulip):

I guess what I'm saying is

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:35, on Zulip):

if you have an "application process" for forming a new domain wg

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:35, on Zulip):

that may in some sense just be the wrong model :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:35, on Zulip):

fundamentally

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:35, on Zulip):

So is it partially a matter of explicitly defining what domains are relevant to the core goals and interests of the Rust Org and then using what's defined in issue #46?

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:35, on Zulip):

Yeah i would agree with that.

Manish Goregaokar (Mar 26 2020 at 17:35, on Zulip):

whenever we do things like say "who wants to lead this?" you often get people signing up where you're like "hmmm you may not be the best choice"

I mentioned this in a community team context but this is a _recurring_ issue for us in my experience as well

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:36, on Zulip):

Then it's not a matter of individual requests, but of explicitly defining "This is what the goals are"

Manish Goregaokar (Mar 26 2020 at 17:36, on Zulip):

and we should be _very careful_ about soliciting leadership

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:36, on Zulip):

I am a bit worried about the "open ended" nature of domain wgs -- when is their work... "done"?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:36, on Zulip):

but I also can see the value in having a kind of "boost"

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:36, on Zulip):

The question is

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:36, on Zulip):

for their work to be done

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

what is their purpose?

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

I am a bit worried about the "open ended" nature of domain wgs -- when is their work... "done"?

Even where "domain wg" means something run externally, as a community group?

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

Scouting new domains?

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

Generally dealing with projects in a domain?

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

Or is that concern only for a more "official" definition?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

I could imagine something like "sometimes we elect to form a project group with the goal of exploring a domain -- it lasts for one year -- after that it is retired, and maybe some projects are spun out into indep things, some are absorbed by rust teams, and others just get abandoned"

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

I'm not so worried about an unofficial group

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

So, then, the scouting purpose?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:38, on Zulip):

for one thing, not my problem ;)

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:38, on Zulip):

but for another -- if they just kind of become inactive, another group can form

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:38, on Zulip):

it's not "exclusive"

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:38, on Zulip):

though if we are listing them on some web page, it will raise the question of whether they should be removed, but I suspect the answer can be "we'll keep them there as long as somebody actively wants them to be there", idk

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:39, on Zulip):

It comes back to purpose though, why the domain working groups are formed, why they are "blessed" or "unofficial/community"

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:39, on Zulip):

e.g. mail stuff isn't relevant to the Rust Org

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:39, on Zulip):

so maybe it would help to define what is

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:39, on Zulip):

and spin up domain groups to investigate

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:40, on Zulip):

domains of possible interest

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:40, on Zulip):

and if those domains are of interest

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:40, on Zulip):

then they become part of what is relevant

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:40, on Zulip):

and then indeed

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:40, on Zulip):

projects come out

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:40, on Zulip):

I guess the question is what it means and who decides

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:40, on Zulip):

for example

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:40, on Zulip):

To sort of reframe the idea of visibility: to me, the main (only?) benefit of such a list is so that community groups can provide a "landing pad" for people looking to contribute to the Rust ecosystem in a certain way: catch up on prior art, ask for help, etc

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

Trick would be to clarify the "official" / "unofficial

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

"blessed"/"not blessed"

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

dichotomy

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

and why it is the way it is

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

for goal-based reasons

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

so it doesn't seem

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

subjective

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

gatekeeping

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

it seems like we're hitting right on one of the central challenges :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:41, on Zulip):

of running an open source project

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:42, on Zulip):

i.e., you want to balance the "bottom up" and the "top down"

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:42, on Zulip):

I wonder if something like "awesome rust" would be good - an external page (possibly GitHub) pointing to "community groups"

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:42, on Zulip):

So

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:42, on Zulip):

Each group should have a link to a chat room of sorts, and it should be considered "active" as long as someone clicking on that link and saying "hi, I have some ideas" would get a response

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:43, on Zulip):

I'm thinking some about the Embedded WG -- they've been one of the most active, and definitely the best organized. Recently, we've also started to see a bit of "embedded comes to lang team with a priority or an RFC"

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:43, on Zulip):

not quite as much as I think we should be

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:43, on Zulip):

anyway, we're nearing time

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:43, on Zulip):

I think a vision and mission statement for Rust might help here

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:43, on Zulip):

Interesting thought!

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:43, on Zulip):

as well as having a way to indicate the existence of

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:44, on Zulip):

but I guess I just wanted to put out there that I think one of the downsides around embedded in particular is we could be doing a better job integrating them -- if that's really a goal, then we're not "done" when we have embedded wg, we never perfected the "feedback" from embedded to teams

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:44, on Zulip):

external groups

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:44, on Zulip):

Well, to have a "done" one needs to be defined (;

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:44, on Zulip):

I dunno, I'm feeling like definitions are the big need here

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:45, on Zulip):

certainly getting buyin

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:45, on Zulip):

That's kind of why I feel we should not be involved at least initially in a given community group. I feel like we should let and encourage groups to self organise, and bring in groups that we see as being beneficial.

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:45, on Zulip):

yes!

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:45, on Zulip):

and have a clear sense of why groups would be brought in

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:45, on Zulip):

where "bring in" still needs a bit of defining :wink:

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:45, on Zulip):

so

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:45, on Zulip):

what we seem to need is

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:45, on Zulip):

:

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:45, on Zulip):

XAMPPRocky said:

That's kind of why I feel we should not be involved at least initially in a given community group. I feel like we should let and encourage groups to self organise, and bring in groups that we see as being beneficial.

this seems closer to the "project group" model that I was talking about, of selecting ideas when someone from team wants to act as liaison

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:46, on Zulip):

I guess there is a question of "does 'bring in' even have to be an official concept"

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:47, on Zulip):

My sense is there needs to be clarity about what Rust Org is involved in

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:47, on Zulip):

time check: 45 minutes, should we discuss next meeting and the next 2 weeks?

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:47, on Zulip):

but also avoid the appearance

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:47, on Zulip):

yes

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:47, on Zulip):

That sounds a bit like the model I was proposing above: domain WGs are self-organizing community groups external to the org, and if they have a specific need they can initiate the formation of a project group to meet that need

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:48, on Zulip):

For the next meeting; @Nell Shamrell-Harrington Should we put your pre-rfc rfc back as the topic for next time?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:48, on Zulip):

I had also said that I would try to setup a time to go over the "domain wg emails"

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:48, on Zulip):

I was just going to ask about that!

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:50, on Zulip):

So these are the action items I have for next meeting

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:50, on Zulip):

probably that would be next wed afternoon

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:50, on Zulip):

Another possible agenda item next time: I hadn't been following updates on the project-groups RFC, but it looks like there's quite a bit of feedback. Is there action we should take there?

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:51, on Zulip):

Yes, I'll have that ready by next time

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:51, on Zulip):

I suspect that's probably higher-priority than the domain wg retrospective... though maybe we'll have a better idea of whether such a retrospective is a good agenda item after we actually go through the emails

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:52, on Zulip):

Well we can handle both in parallel.

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:53, on Zulip):

Okay, we have 5 minutes left does anyone have any last thing they'd like to mention?

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:53, on Zulip):

I guess the question is more what should we expect to discuss during meeting time "in depth"

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:53, on Zulip):

But I'm good to adjourn

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:53, on Zulip):

Thoughtful discussion y'all :)

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:55, on Zulip):

Maybe we should treat these items a bit more holistically... my mental model is now something like a funnel, where Rust users with ideas for Rust features/etc (1) find a relevant domain wg if one exists, (2) form a project group if appropriate and if a liaison is interested, and (3) submit an RFC only once the project group has discussed it for a bit

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:55, on Zulip):

i.e., this is all connected. (Though, to bring Douglas Adams in once again, maybe I'm thinking this way just b/c I'm finally watching the Dirk Gently series.)

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:56, on Zulip):

(not that every feature would go through that exact sequence, of course)

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:56, on Zulip):

but I'm not sure we can design a more formal pre-RFC process without also considering the roles of project groups and domain groups.

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:56, on Zulip):

fin

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:57, on Zulip):

we can begin drafting it

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:57, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Let's see next week which of the three items make progress and make whichever the main topic? What with world events as it is who knows what next week looks like let alone two weeks.

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:57, on Zulip):

and using it to inform the project groups/domain groups definition and vice versa

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:57, on Zulip):

(sorry I've been quiet - I accidentally was on a different topic in Zulip and didn't realize it)

XAMPPRocky (Mar 26 2020 at 17:58, on Zulip):

Okay, we have just over a minute left so I'm going to call it there. We discuss the rest async. Thanks everyone! :wave:

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:58, on Zulip):

Thank you everyone!

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:58, on Zulip):

:wave:

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Mar 26 2020 at 17:58, on Zulip):

Stay safe!

Val Grimm (Mar 26 2020 at 17:59, on Zulip):

:wave:

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 26 2020 at 17:59, on Zulip):

You too!

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:59, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) I am pretty wary of falling into the trap of "we have to figure everything out before we can draft steps to improve any one thing"

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:59, on Zulip):

I think we can make steps to improve pre-rfc process (for example) and then make further changes if that makes sense

nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 17:59, on Zulip):

( but it's good to consider in any case, and maybe we can try to leave room to be open-ended about it )

Last update: Apr 03 2020 at 18:00UTC