Stream: wg-governance

Topic: meeting 2020-02-27


Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 17:57, on Zulip):

Hi Folks, Have created a thread for the meeting today.

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 17:59, on Zulip):

I renamed it to include the year :)

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 17:59, on Zulip):

and match a bit more what we tend to do in other streams

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:00, on Zulip):

I guess we should make a @WG-Governance Zulip user group ..

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:00, on Zulip):

?

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:00, on Zulip):

Meeting! (cc @BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) @Florian Gilcher @Nell Shamrell-Harrington

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:01, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Is that a feature zulip has? I was just wishing we had something like that. :sweat_smile:

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:01, on Zulip):

yes, Zulip has this feature.

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:01, on Zulip):

the only problem is that we don't sync the rust-lang/team repo with zulip user groups automatically

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:01, on Zulip):

annoying

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:01, on Zulip):

Greetings!

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:01, on Zulip):

I'll create a wg-governance user group, in any case

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:02, on Zulip):

For discussion during today's meeting https://github.com/rust-lang/wg-governance/pull/42

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:02, on Zulip):

ps another convention we follow in other groups is to add a :wave: emoji to the "Meeting!" message

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:02, on Zulip):

to show who is present

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:02, on Zulip):

:wave:

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:02, on Zulip):

Not talk to the hand but talk WITH the hand :)

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:03, on Zulip):

Er...shall I go ahead and start?

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:03, on Zulip):

Put together a pre-RFC for the GitHub access policy

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:03, on Zulip):

@WG-governance now exists, you all should be able to add people too, if I overlooked anyone

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:04, on Zulip):

Oh also cc @Pietro Albini who said they wanted to attend.

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:04, on Zulip):

Got some good feedback from @BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) and @XAMPPRocky

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:04, on Zulip):

Did anyone else have any thoughts on it?

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:04, on Zulip):

And are you required to have all the sections in the RFC template when formally submitting the RFC?

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:04, on Zulip):

:wave:

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:04, on Zulip):

It looks good to me but I'm new at this game.

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

New at the game is an immensely important perspective to have :)

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

I don't _think_ all sections are always required...

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

But people resistant to structure might want to see the Drawbacks (: That said

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

I don't really see structure as a drawback (;

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

One question I have is does this need to be an RFC, or could it be a PR to the forge documentation? Like is there anything that requires a decision? From what I can tell it's how we do things for the most part.

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

I think that section was already filled out? It's the "prior art" section that still has template text

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

That is a good question.

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

(or had, when I looked)

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

It has a drawbacks section currently

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

The Drawbacks are there, what I meant was, I think you can leave that out

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

left a comment

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

RFCs have the benefit of visibility/transparency/discoverability. I generally tend to err in favor of that

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

You were asking if we needed all of the standard pieces

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

And yeah, probably politically speaking an RFC might be best

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

for getting buyin

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

calming the waters something

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

Cool

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

I personally would like to see us using RFCs more, and just merging them faster than we do

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

but I think there's value in there being a central place where "medium or large decisions" go through

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

(though it can be a fine line to draw)

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

I don't really anticipate much pushback on this particular topic

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis I see your suggestion in the PR, I will get that incorporated

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

one that is complete - does anyone see any reason I should delay formally submitting this RFC?

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Sure, what is that decision in this case?

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

seems like most of us were inclined to RFC :) might as well go that way, I think

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

if nothing else it advertises a bit the work of the governance WG

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

So, for my part: aye

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

can do!

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

"voice vote"?

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

er...yes?

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

aye as in, yes file the RFC (;

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

I don't have a strong opinion, an RFC is fine.

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

oh I thought that was decided, apologies

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

ok, great

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

not sure what's the rest of our agenda :)

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

Cool - will move forward with the RFC

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

yes the other two items are

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):
  1. Pre-RFC process - determine right place to talk about this
  2. Follow-up on moving (community, devtools, nursery) to rust-lang
Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

ack

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

yes

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

I managed to only paste the line

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

I believe the "Pre-RFC process" item is @nikomatsakis

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

Yes, that's true :)

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:13, on Zulip):

For context, I was thinking of the proposal I wrote up here

Pietro Albini (Feb 27 2020 at 18:13, on Zulip):

[ugh sorry I don't feel well enough to attend -- I'll check the pre-rfc soonish]

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

Feel better, @Pietro Albini!

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

But I think the larger question is sort of how to coordinate a proposal like this -- it's kind of lang team, kind of governance, but I think it'd be useful if we were able to help teams in updating their procedures

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

truth is I've not had time to think about this at all

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:15, on Zulip):

when I posted the blog post there was a certain amount of feedback

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:15, on Zulip):

(in an internals thread)

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:15, on Zulip):

Do you want to push this to next meeting?

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:15, on Zulip):

If you're not ready? Or do you think we can still usefully discuss here?

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:15, on Zulip):

I was just going to say something like that

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

I'd be happy to discuss it a bit async too -- either thoughts on the proposal itself or what the best wa is to pursue it

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

maybe I'll make a zulip topic on it

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

So, that leaves Follow-up on moving (community, devtools, nursery) to rust-lang

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

Do you think you could summarize your sense of the general "trend" of the feedback, at least? That would give the rest of us something to mentally "chew on" in the interim

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

oh ack sorry

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

no problem!

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

There's a small bit of follow on moving repos to rust-lang

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) said:

Do you think you could summarize your sense of the general "trend" of the feedback, at least? That would give the rest of us something to mentally "chew on" in the interim

I don't remember that well, I'll skim the internals thread

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

I don't recall there being strong negative feedback in particular

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

Okay, sounds good. Let's move on, then.

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

(By the internals thread, do you mean the ongoing AiC thread that gets updates when you post new entries?)

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

We found another org by the community team (rust-unofficial). I would recommend reading the minutes, but TL;DR maybe we'll move too-many-lists as it's a valuable resources and the org is now actually "unofficial". https://github.com/rust-community/team/issues/278

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

ok

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

seems fine

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) said:

(By the internals thread, do you mean the ongoing AiC thread that gets updates when you post new entries?)

yes, specifically starting from this post

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

Already linked in the other thread :D

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

So I think we have discussed everything on the list, I have one topic to talk about but it can be async, is there anything else anyone wants to bring up?

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:23, on Zulip):

Why is too-many-lists a candidate for "official" maintenance under rust-lang?

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) It's a useful resource written by an ex docs team member.

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:25, on Zulip):

The useful-resource part doesn't seem pertinent to where it should live, to me...

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:25, on Zulip):

The only other two notable repos is patterns and rust-awesome, which @Manish Goregaokar said they would not want to be in rust-lang since they could seem like blessing some patterns or crates.

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:25, on Zulip):

e.g. Manish mentions in that thread that awesome-rust is specifically not a candidate for "official" status. But surely that's considered a useful resource as well?

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:26, on Zulip):

Is the idea that too-many-lists is something that we want to consider a somewhat "official" intro to the language, a la the Book?

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) Yes, but it's a list of third party crates and that list being under rust-lang could be seen as blessed crates, at least that is my understanding of the concern.

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) Something being under rust-lang isn't really official.

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

I can certainly see that concern

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

XAMPPRocky said:

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) Something being under rust-lang isn't really official.

Well now I am doubly confused!

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

What does official mean in this context?

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

Won't everything under rust-lang be subject to the new (proposed) permissions rules?

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

That is at least one level of infrastructure-enforced "officialness"

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

That is correct

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

I think the point is that merely having the repo in rust-lang doesn't mean we have to put it on a prominent place in the web page etc

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

Or promise to maintain it.

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

And one other type of "officialness", the one we're concerned about for awesome-Rust, is the perception thereof, i.e., things under rust-lang might be perceived as "blessed" in some way (so much so that for awesome-Rust, the blessing is transitively applied to the crates listed)

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

but it is a piece of "community team managed" content (right?), whereas the "awesome rust" list is not -- although many people who manage it are in the community team :)

at least, that is the signal I see being sent

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

We can specify that somewhere - that something being in the rust-lang org does not guarantee that it is maintained and supported

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

@Nell Shamrell-Harrington We can document that on forge. https://forge.rust-lang.org/github.html

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

It sounds like there needs to be a way to talk about the status of different repos, on forge indeed could work

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I can see why putting too-many-lists under rust-lang doesn't have the same drawbacks as migrating the other two projects, but I don't really understand what advantage(s) we'd be getting by migrating too-many-lists.

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

explicitly clarifying stuff without guessing what is official and what is blessed

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

I'll draft something up for the forge

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) The concern around awesome-rust is that even with the caveat of things being not official it can still give the impression that they are in some way blessed.

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

So, this is where explicit explanation would help (:

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

Right. I understand too-many-lists doesn't have _that_ drawback. But is there a benefit to moving it?

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) Well right now rust-unofficial has no public members. So moving to rust-lang makes sure that we can still keep it alive.

Manish Goregaokar (Feb 27 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

i'm at a tc39 thing: but too-many-lists was written by a former docs team member, and is generally considered a useful piece of documentation

Manish Goregaokar (Feb 27 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

@XAMPPRocky it has many members fwiw

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:34, on Zulip):

why not move things and explain what kings of things can live in lang?

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:34, on Zulip):

to avoid the imprecise tags of official and blessed

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:34, on Zulip):

that sounds reasonable to me

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:34, on Zulip):

@Manish Goregaokar By "documentation" do you mean that we want to consider it to be something like the Book, i.e., a resource endorsed and maintained by the Rust project itself?

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:34, on Zulip):

So is that what you are writing for forge?

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:34, on Zulip):

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) said:

Right. I understand too-many-lists doesn't have _that_ drawback. But is there a benefit to moving it?

it can have rust-lang teams as its owners, it's easier to find

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

That was generally the rationale I think for the cleanup, easier management as well as getting rid of dead bits?

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

I was planning on adding something along the lines of "A repo being in the Rust org does not guarantee that it is maintained"

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

Val Grimm said:

why not move things and explain what kings of things can live in lang?

this simple thing sounds like it might be hard to do :)

Manish Goregaokar (Feb 27 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) not necessarily.

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

I mean, what are the sorts of things that live in lang?

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

And yes, it is hard to explain, but thats our job, right? (;

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

(to be clear, by "lang" you mean the rust-lang github org, right?)

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

We could put together some guidlines around what should be in rust-lang....though it does mean we need to figure that out

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

ack yes

Manish Goregaokar (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) the way @XAMPPRocky brought it up in the first place was that she said that we should be moving everything into rust-lang, regardless of how officially maintained it is

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

mainly I'm saying -- we're 5 minutes over time

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

and yes

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

oops

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

and I suspect we won't find that so easy to define

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

so we should maybe split it out and table for now :)

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

can we add it to agenda for next time?

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

Sounds good

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

that agenda would also include the pre-RFC process

Manish Goregaokar (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

_within that framework_, too-many-lists makes sense to be in rust-lang, because it was handed over to the community team by a docs team member ages ago, and there aren't any concerns about looking official

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

Okay, @nikomatsakis Would you be okay making the pre-rfc process the focus of the next meeting?

nikomatsakis (Feb 27 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

not sure :)

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

@Manish Goregaokar Thanks, I was missing that context. So the original idea was essentially to delete rust-unofficial entirely, b/c everything in it would be migrated?

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

Okay, let's decide async.

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

Ok, so I propose the discussion about why things are being moved go to async

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

and decide on agenda async

Manish Goregaokar (Feb 27 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) yes

XAMPPRocky (Feb 27 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

Thanks everyone! :wave:

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

take care folks

BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) (Feb 27 2020 at 18:38, on Zulip):

:wave:

Manish Goregaokar (Feb 27 2020 at 18:38, on Zulip):

@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) community team came to the decision that we should merge the parts that can be merged (too-many-lists) and spli the rest out as its own non-team-affiliated project

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:38, on Zulip):

I can do the official minutes and blog post, if nobody else wants to (:

Val Grimm (Feb 27 2020 at 18:38, on Zulip):

I propose the rest of the conversation about mergin stuff go to a new thread @BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) @Manish Goregaokar

Val Grimm (Mar 09 2020 at 19:03, on Zulip):

Due to various Real Life Stuff (nothing major, just busy) was slow to create official minutes. Did so today, also created blog post. Updated agenda for next meeting further. here is pull request for blog post. https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/538 Minutes are already live https://github.com/rust-lang/wg-governance/blob/master/minutes/2020.02.27

Nell Shamrell-Harrington (Mar 09 2020 at 19:04, on Zulip):

Thank you @Val Grimm !

Val Grimm (Mar 09 2020 at 19:07, on Zulip):

Planning to report async conversations in minutes from closest meeting in time. All conversations already had here reported in the 27 Feb minutes batch.

Val Grimm (Mar 10 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

wrote something in wrong thread please disregard

Last update: Apr 03 2020 at 17:55UTC