Stream: t-lang

Topic: meeting minutes


nikomatsakis (May 01 2020 at 21:32, on Zulip):

Dear folks in this stream,

So in general our meeting minutes etc are all managed by me. This stinks because it honestly takes a lot of my time, and because it's hard to participate in a meeting and take minutes.

I think in my ideal world we would have somebody else taking minutes and uploading them to the lang-team repo -- and publishing a blog post.

These minutes could have different forms. I think ideal would be to try and truly transcribe what folks are saying, but I think it'd also be reasonable to capture key points, whatever the conclusion is, and to link into the video of the discussion.

(That said, in my attempts to do those sorts of summaries, I often find it's kind of hard because it requires 'real time' editorial judgement about how important things are, and that's often more obvious after the fact.)

Anyway, this is all to say, I'm wondering about the idea of trying to start up a little group of folks who might trade off minute taking duties and try to help increase lang team transparency and visibility?

nikomatsakis (May 01 2020 at 21:33, on Zulip):

Regarding videos, it occurs to me that I can also start to rely on Zoom's cloud publishing feature, so that the file doesn't end up on my disk, and whoever the scribe is for any given meeting could move those things over to YouTube.

nikomatsakis (May 01 2020 at 21:34, on Zulip):

Also, I should add, I still think we should consider doing our triage meetings on Zulip -- at least experiment with a few. That would help with some of the "transcribing" duties, at least.

nikomatsakis (May 01 2020 at 21:34, on Zulip):

I do think that the design meetings should stay live, so this question is still relevant either way.

nikomatsakis (May 01 2020 at 21:37, on Zulip):

Oh, and while I'm dumping thoughts

nikomatsakis (May 01 2020 at 21:38, on Zulip):

I would like to be moving our logic to github project boards or some other format

nikomatsakis (May 01 2020 at 21:38, on Zulip):

and to take the more "persistent" notes and minutes there

nikomatsakis (May 01 2020 at 21:38, on Zulip):

i.e., we often use the dropbox paper to collect both "old notes and context" and newer thoughts? well, anyway.

scottmcm (May 01 2020 at 22:01, on Zulip):

I wonder if we could put out a call in the next video, and maybe those people who are already watching them would be interested in helping out.

simulacrum (May 01 2020 at 22:17, on Zulip):

I will say that I'd be up for trying to help in-meeting take notes, though I agree it's hard to participate and take notes.

In some sense maybe we could start with using zoom's call transcription feature and then polishing that? I don't know how well it would work

nikomatsakis (May 04 2020 at 17:03, on Zulip):

Hmm, zoom has a call transcription feature? that definitely sounds plausible

nikomatsakis (May 04 2020 at 17:03, on Zulip):

Josh also suggested that -- given that we're posting video -- it may suffice to have "main topics" and time stamps

nikomatsakis (May 04 2020 at 17:03, on Zulip):

and I think that sounds .. reasonable-ish

nikomatsakis (May 04 2020 at 17:03, on Zulip):

maybe I said that already

Asa Zeren (May 04 2020 at 21:17, on Zulip):

I'd be willing to help out transcribing meetings. I'm planning on listening in anyways, for my own benefit, but as I don't have a deep knowledge of the language design I don't have much to say. I can't guarantee that I'll be available for every meeting, but I can certainly make many.

Asa Zeren (May 06 2020 at 22:09, on Zulip):

I realized I have an every-other week conflict with the first bit of the 3pm EDT thursday meetings, so I will likely not be able to take minutes for the first bit tomorrow. (Though that meeting may end early. It is a 2:30 meeting, that last time went for ~45 minutes, but is somewhat variable). I could still take notes after I arrive, and maybe use the video to do the first 15 minutes after the fact.

Josh Triplett (May 07 2020 at 01:39, on Zulip):

That meeting is about to be moved; we're working on determining the new time slot.

Asa Zeren (May 07 2020 at 02:10, on Zulip):

I thought it was staying the same and moving next week. Okay then. I'll see if I can make the new time slot when it is announced.

Asa Zeren (May 09 2020 at 03:25, on Zulip):

Here is my write up after taking notes at the last meeting: asaizeren.herokuapp.com/etc/minutes_writeup.html

Asa Zeren (May 10 2020 at 14:45, on Zulip):

Could I get some feedback before tomorrow's meeting?

Josh Triplett (May 11 2020 at 02:18, on Zulip):

Pinging @T-lang for feedback.

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 18:56, on Zulip):

:wave:

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 18:56, on Zulip):

reading now :)

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 18:57, on Zulip):

I definitely felt like the setup didn't work that well.

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 18:58, on Zulip):

I've seen a number of meetings where folks do detailed transcriptions, but it's also true that most of those are not recorded, so it's more imp't

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 18:59, on Zulip):

@Asa Zeren do you plan to attend today's meeting?

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 18:59, on Zulip):

I think having a dedicated note-taker who is taking the notes 'inline' would be good,

Asa Zeren (May 11 2020 at 18:59, on Zulip):

Yes.

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 18:59, on Zulip):

one thing I've seen that is often helpful is that folks can "live-edit" notes to fix typos or correct misunderstandings

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 19:00, on Zulip):

it's also definitely true that it's useful for people to be able to directly type code examples and the like

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 19:00, on Zulip):

I've been a bit unsure with how to publish the minutes from last meeting, too

pnkfelix (May 11 2020 at 19:01, on Zulip):

the main question for me is what fidelity of notes do we desire/expect during the meeting itself

pnkfelix (May 11 2020 at 19:01, on Zulip):

in practice, I know I have at times attempted to use the notes during the meeting as a form of "shared short term memory"

pnkfelix (May 11 2020 at 19:01, on Zulip):

to try to clarify my understanding of some subtlety under discussion

pnkfelix (May 11 2020 at 19:02, on Zulip):

Attempting to transcribe every statement is not always helpful for this purpose, especially if there are gaps

pnkfelix (May 11 2020 at 19:02, on Zulip):

Notes that are constructed after the meeting are also useful

pnkfelix (May 11 2020 at 19:02, on Zulip):

but they are useful for different purposes

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 19:02, on Zulip):

so -- I think that capturing the "final conclusion" or consensus is good,

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 19:02, on Zulip):

but it's also quite useful to have some of the considerations,

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 19:02, on Zulip):

which are often omitted from such things

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 19:03, on Zulip):

which is why I'd sort of like to see "major points" raised as well

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 19:03, on Zulip):

I try to capture those as we go but I often feel it's hard -- and I feel a bit biased :)

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 19:03, on Zulip):

i.e., things that I say are always major :P

Asa Zeren (May 11 2020 at 19:03, on Zulip):

I was thinking a bullet list summary of points in the conversation, plus some notes of background, like niko gave in the sample.

nikomatsakis (May 11 2020 at 20:12, on Zulip):

Thanks @Asa Zeren for your help during the meeting!

Asa Zeren (May 11 2020 at 20:17, on Zulip):

No problem. I think that worked much better. What does everyone else think? (Though I can't respond in real time rn)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 14:30, on Zulip):

Hmm, interesting. I just discovered that if I record the meeting to the Zoom cloud (as I've been doing lately) then it automatically creates a transcript!

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 14:32, on Zulip):

This may mean @Asa Zeren that what we need most isn't "live transcripting" so much as somebody to "post process". I think what we could use are:

One bit of complexity is that I have to be present to kick off the recording, I still haven't really figured out a solution to that for days when I'm absent, but I think we could have a fallback method for that, or else maybe I can finagle the Zoom permissions so that at least pnkfelix/I can both kick things off or something.

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 14:35, on Zulip):

I have to say that I would love it if my role were to

and that somebody else would manage posting the summary to the lang-team repo, posting the video, and (ideally) posting a blog post to Inside Rust.

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 14:35, on Zulip):

I uploaded the video from the proposal design meeting with the transcription information attached.

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 14:37, on Zulip):

The way I would probably want to manag ethis is to have a "lang team secretary" or "lang team scribe" whose role is to do this. We could assign it per meeting, but it'd be easier I think to nominate someone for N months (or maybe multiple someones) and then, at the end of that time, re-nominate. Of course it wouldn't be a binding commitment, I'm just imagining it's kind of nice to rotate the role and check back in from time to time.

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 17:58, on Zulip):

Ah, wait, maybe we can "post-process" the transcript file to create a "clickable" transcript

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 17:59, on Zulip):

or..maybe we can use docket...

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:02, on Zulip):

or maybe vtt.js kind of does what we want ...

Asa Zeren (May 14 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

I think that there are really two issues here:

Asa Zeren (May 14 2020 at 18:41, on Zulip):

For the second, I was trying to capture this information in real time, but because of the nature of human conversation, it ends up a bit unorganized. Also, there is not good integration between the scribe (me) and the person running the meeting (niko), and also not good integration with a common way to track action items and results. As an example, at the end of last meeting, Niko started writing the results of the meeting at the top of the document, which I was already doing at the bottom.

Asa Zeren (May 14 2020 at 18:42, on Zulip):

In addition, it is sometimes hard to keep track of what has been officially decided, as the meeting is a relatively informal conversation. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but does make creating organized notes much more difficult.

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 22:15, on Zulip):

Yeah, I don't actually tend to see meetings as good for making decisions anyway,

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 22:15, on Zulip):

it always happens that important stuff gets remembered after the meeting ends

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 22:15, on Zulip):

or brought up by someone who wasn't present

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 22:15, on Zulip):

but it's useful to have a sense of the consensus for sure

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 22:15, on Zulip):

I think maybe writing up that kind of thing can be done by the folks in the meeting sort of "live"

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 22:16, on Zulip):

i.e., the person running the meeting should try to scribe out the consensus, and we can rely on the transcript etc to flesh out the details

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 22:16, on Zulip):

it'd be really great if we had a tool to convert a VTT file into something we can post though

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 22:18, on Zulip):

maybe the internet will tell me the right tool: https://twitter.com/nikomatsakis/status/1261058232350576643

Josh Triplett (May 14 2020 at 22:27, on Zulip):

I like the idea of automatically adding the YouTube links. This seems like something that shouldn't be hard to build, given a VTT parser.

pnkfelix (May 18 2020 at 19:54, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis can you send me an example VTT that you downloaded? The spec for WebVTT shows a simple caption file that is quite readable, so I'm curious if the files you are looking at differ from the example I saw.

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 19:54, on Zulip):

Yep. It is readable but not "nicely readable"

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 19:55, on Zulip):

I was a bit embarassed to post it as our minutes directly

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 19:55, on Zulip):

what I would prefer is some light post-processing that converts it into

* Foo: ...
* Bar: ...
nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 19:55, on Zulip):

where those are links into the youtube video

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 19:55, on Zulip):

and maybe we manually insert some sections and/or a TOC

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 19:56, on Zulip):

also what I'd prefer is that I send out the links when zoom gives them to me and somebody else does the work of uploading to youtube and lang-team repo :)

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 19:56, on Zulip):

anyway let me go upload a few past meetings and I'll gist one of the VTT files

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 21:27, on Zulip):

@pnkfelix here is a gist of the transcript from today's meeting

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 21:27, on Zulip):

Note to self

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 21:28, on Zulip):

We should come up with some relatively clear phrase when transitioning between issues

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 21:28, on Zulip):

so that we can more easily add "table of contents" into the moinutes

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 21:28, on Zulip):

and to help keep people synchronizd

ecstatic-morse (May 18 2020 at 21:35, on Zulip):

"Nicholas Matsakis: And then on size is sort of the fundamental operation that's building on the thing that takes the tea and converts it to a ding DING"

ecstatic-morse (May 18 2020 at 21:37, on Zulip):

Besides the parts with a lot of jargon, it seems to be pretty good quality.

Asa Zeren (May 18 2020 at 22:33, on Zulip):

I can write a post processor for the files, if you want. Doesn't look too hard.

nikomatsakis (May 19 2020 at 16:51, on Zulip):

@Asa Zeren indeed it wouldn't be too hard

nikomatsakis (May 19 2020 at 16:51, on Zulip):

if you want to do some experiments, would be awesome

Asa Zeren (May 19 2020 at 19:08, on Zulip):

I looked at it, and the full webvtt spec is a bit complicated and not documented in an easy to understand way. I currently am ironing out some bugs in a parser for the subset that zulip produces, and once that is fixed it should be straitforward to process the files and emit some html with links.

nikomatsakis (May 19 2020 at 22:13, on Zulip):

I think it wouldl be fine to just have some tool that we update as we go

nikomatsakis (May 19 2020 at 22:14, on Zulip):

(but note that there is existing tooling we could adapt)

nikomatsakis (May 19 2020 at 22:14, on Zulip):

though I guess you're already workin' on it

Last update: Jun 05 2020 at 23:15UTC