Stream: t-lang

Topic: triage meeting on Zulip?


nikomatsakis (Mar 26 2020 at 21:25, on Zulip):

So, before the meeting today, @pnkfelix and I were discussing the idea of holding lang team triage meetings on Zulip. At minimum, I think it makes sense to move the "pre-triage" meetings to Zulip -- and I might be amenable to trying some of the triage meetings on Zulip as well.

My reasoning:

But there are some downsides:

centril (Mar 30 2020 at 14:17, on Zulip):

I would prefer sticking with Zoom. Most of the pre-triage is just me / you filling in links anyways, so its just a bunch of silence.
I don't feel we should prioritize more detailed minutes if it makes us less effective. We're already transparent enough as a team.
Regarding pings, we can still do the pinging on Zulip (as we do already).

I definitely don't want to move triage-meetings themselves to Zulip. I think the compiler team meetings are ineffective and I wouldn't want to have the same problem.

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 14:57, on Zulip):

If its on Zoom I will not attend.

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 14:58, on Zulip):

or sorry

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 14:58, on Zulip):

I got confused about what we were discussing

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 14:58, on Zulip):

in terms of whether it was the pre-triage or the triage

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 14:58, on Zulip):

meeting

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 14:58, on Zulip):

I already don't attend the pre-triage meeting regularly, so no loss if I don't come to them.

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 14:59, on Zulip):

but it would be easier for me to participate if it were on Zulip

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 15:00, on Zulip):

I think the compiler team meetings are ineffective and I wouldn't want to have the same problem.

I would be curious to know if T-compiler agrees with this assertion. cc @T-compiler . It certainly has its problems but I don't think the trying to move that group to Zoom would fix anything.

centril (Mar 30 2020 at 15:05, on Zulip):

@pnkfelix whether compiler meetings should move to Zoom feels like a discussion to be had elsewhere :slight_smile:

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 15:06, on Zulip):

my point was that you were making an analogy between the lang team meetings and the compiler team meetings, in order to assert that moving the lang team meeting to zulip would make them ineffective.

centril (Mar 30 2020 at 15:06, on Zulip):

I am yes

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 15:07, on Zulip):

And I am asserting that I do not think the ineffectiveness of the compiler team meeting stems from its hosting platform.

centril (Mar 30 2020 at 15:07, on Zulip):

Well I disagree; I think there's a lot of dead time in the compiler meetings, stemming from "does anyone want to say anything?"

centril (Mar 30 2020 at 15:07, on Zulip):

and that doesn't happen as much on t-lang meetings

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 15:08, on Zulip):

with a larger group of people, those pauses have to happen.

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 15:08, on Zulip):

otherwise the conversation gets dominated by a minority of those willing to interrupt others.

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 15:11, on Zulip):

that, or you need to adopt something more structured

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 15:11, on Zulip):

(e.g. Robert's Rules of Order)

centril (Mar 30 2020 at 15:11, on Zulip):

Assuming that's true (I'm skeptical; I think most of the time people say nothing cause they don't feel strongly), the lang meetings are not as large, so I think the point doesn't apply to us.

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 15:12, on Zulip):

centril said:

the lang meetings are not as large, so I think the point doesn't apply to us.

That's right. And therefore, even on Zulip, we would not need to have such pauses.

centril (Mar 30 2020 at 15:13, on Zulip):

That doesn't follow. What I understand is you are saying the pauses should happen. I'm saying the platform itself causes that.

pnkfelix (Mar 30 2020 at 15:14, on Zulip):

Okay so I guess I just disagree that its an artifact of the platform

centril (Mar 30 2020 at 15:14, on Zulip):

Right :slight_smile:

nikomatsakis (Mar 30 2020 at 21:17, on Zulip):

Hmm. So, I do agree that pauses can sometimes be introduced as a result of the platform. I just think Zoom has its downsides too. I'm not so concerned that we're "not transparent enough" -- but I do find that having the compiler meetings on Zulip has been really great for people getting more involved and following along. In other words, it's no about a "defensive" thing, but more about a "welcoming" thing.

In any case, one option would be to experiment -- try some meetings on Zulip and see how they feel.

nikomatsakis (Mar 30 2020 at 21:18, on Zulip):

Honestly, some part of it for me is that I find video meetings somewhat more draining.

centril (Mar 31 2020 at 07:27, on Zulip):

I don't see what's unwelcoming about Zoom meetings though; we've had lotsa folk attend not in the team and that has been great

centril (Mar 31 2020 at 10:11, on Zulip):

One aspect to this is I think video meetings produces friendlier conversations than text.

simulacrum (Mar 31 2020 at 12:03, on Zulip):

It is definitely true that Zoom has way higher overhead than a zulip meeting. That said, lang team I think usually has higher bandwidth discussions with fewer people who likely have possible input.

nikomatsakis (Apr 01 2020 at 17:25, on Zulip):

I've been thinking about this. I remain interested in giving it a try. I do recognize that zoom can be higher bandwidth, and I can see that being useful, but on the other side I think:

On the other side, though, I think it's true that we'll be giving up some bandwidth, and perhaps a bit of "dedicated attention", which means we might get stuck waiting for people to respond and things like that.

In any case, I'd be particularly curious to hear from @Josh Triplett and @scottmcm, as the other two lang team members who are regularly attending meetings right now.

Josh Triplett (Apr 01 2020 at 17:29, on Zulip):

I personally prefer the bandwidth and context of Zoom, but I could imagine doing triage over Zulip. When dealing with complex discussions, though, I find it extremely helpful to be able to see how people are following, to avoid the problem of "silently lost but not saying anything". Leaving aside the issue of distractions.

simulacrum (Apr 01 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

I think it is true that we'd likely have less ability to have (short) but fairly in-depth discussions at triage meetings if we move to Zulip, but that's maybe not a bad thing. I have felt that those -- while accelerating how quickly some decision can get made -- likely leave out feedback from those not in the room

Josh Triplett (Apr 01 2020 at 17:49, on Zulip):

So, in theory we're not supposed to have any new rationale in the meeting. We should be summarizing the result of the meeting, posting that to the relevant GitHub issue or internals discussion thread, and going from there. The only things that should change in the meeting itself are the positions of one or more people on the team.

simulacrum (Apr 01 2020 at 17:51, on Zulip):

I think that's true, but to some extent I think that when you're not in the meeting you may not try to examine the solution space, or not really understand it fully

pnkfelix (Apr 01 2020 at 17:51, on Zulip):

To be clear: New rationale can be raised; we just are not supposed to make decisions based on new rationales

pnkfelix (Apr 01 2020 at 17:52, on Zulip):

(but maybe that's what @Josh Triplett said. :slight_smile: )

simulacrum (Apr 01 2020 at 17:52, on Zulip):

In particular your point about "silently lost but not saying anything" I think happens with Zoom, too, just for those not in the meeting if that makes sense

Josh Triplett (Apr 01 2020 at 17:53, on Zulip):

That's entirely possible, but I think the meeting should be first and foremost for the people in it. We want to be transparent, and show how the process works and what our thoughts were, but the primary point of the meeting is for the language team itself to make progress.

simulacrum (Apr 01 2020 at 17:54, on Zulip):

(and in some sense is worse because it's much more work intensive to ask questions outside of video meetings, especially in areas where you don't have a lot of background experience)

centril (Apr 01 2020 at 18:02, on Zulip):

simulacrum said:

I think it is true that we'd likely have less ability to have (short) but fairly in-depth discussions at triage meetings if we move to Zulip, but that's maybe not a bad thing. I have felt that those -- while accelerating how quickly some decision can get made -- likely leave out feedback from those not in the room

I think that description is apt, but I do also think it would be unfortunate to give up on that, because language team triage mostly consists of that sort of thing... e.g., 10 minutes per issue of detailed discussion

nikomatsakis (Apr 02 2020 at 21:30, on Zulip):

I think it might make sense to do a "trial run" here. We don't, after all, have to be totally locked in one way or the other.

Josh Triplett (Apr 02 2020 at 21:36, on Zulip):

I also think that if we manage to get design meetings going more regularly and on more topics, we might not need full-bandwidth triage meetings as often.

centril (Apr 02 2020 at 21:37, on Zulip):

I think if we do a trial pre-triage here, I would most likely just sit and add links to the document and not write anything on Zulip

centril (Apr 02 2020 at 21:37, on Zulip):

I can't focus on doing that and tabbing out to writing here

centril (Apr 02 2020 at 21:38, on Zulip):

leading a meeting and writing at the same time is hard, but at least I don't have to lead a meeting in pre-triage

Josh Triplett (Apr 02 2020 at 21:38, on Zulip):

@centril I strongly recommend that the person leading the meeting and the person taking minutes or updating a doc not be the same person.

Josh Triplett (Apr 02 2020 at 21:39, on Zulip):

I've had experiences at work to support that: it's a pain to lead and take minutes at the same time.

centril (Apr 02 2020 at 21:40, on Zulip):

@Josh Triplett yes sure; having a secretary and a chair-person is better, but the chair has to follow what is being said in the meeting

centril (Apr 02 2020 at 21:40, on Zulip):

and talking and reading concurrently is also distracting

centril (Apr 02 2020 at 21:41, on Zulip):

(Also, I still don't really like Zulip -- I was sorta reluctant to come over here)

Lokathor (Apr 03 2020 at 06:19, on Zulip):

One note: if the entire meeting is a single Zulip topic there's no reason to take minutes during the meeting. You can arrange the "minutes" at the end, or anyone can just read through the topic.

nikomatsakis (Apr 08 2020 at 21:10, on Zulip):

(yes, in compiler team meetings, we usually we just put :point_up: emojis on significant points, though I do like to have an auxiliary document to try and shape out the consensus at various points)

Last update: Jun 05 2020 at 23:10UTC