Stream: t-compiler/wg-learning

Topic: meeting 2019-07-09


mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 18:50, on Zulip):

@WG-learning meeting in 10 minutes :wave:

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 18:50, on Zulip):

Here is the agenda doc: https://hackmd.io/s/SysIzeMRE

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 18:50, on Zulip):

As always, feel free to add things

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 18:59, on Zulip):

hello

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:00, on Zulip):

Shall we start?

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:00, on Zulip):

@WG-learning hi everyone

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:00, on Zulip):

let's start the meeting

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:00, on Zulip):

What’s each of us working on and what’s the progress we are having?

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:01, on Zulip):

I can start with this

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:01, on Zulip):

https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/59772 was finally merged. This adds rustc-guide to toolstate, so it should hopefully be easier to track broken links :tada:

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:01, on Zulip):

that's great @mark-i-m

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

yay!!

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

I have https://github.com/rust-lang/rustc-guide/issues/372 assigned to me but I have no progress on it yet. I intend to start sometime this week.

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

as you have probably noticed we also have a Github project

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:03, on Zulip):

the important thing is that we are tracking the lectures there, only that

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

doesn't seem to be more people participating on this meeting

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

I guess we should continue with the next topic

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

organize lectures on codegen and macros

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

I added that one

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

we should do that, done :P

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

kidding, kidding, say more :)

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

:P

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

How do we go about actually making lectures happen?

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

I think it's a complex process

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis made a bunch of lectures happen

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:06, on Zulip):

since I'm more or less trying to organize I have zero victories on that front :joy:

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:07, on Zulip):

The problem is that Niko seems oversubscribed, and I believe they are going to be on leave or traveling or something...

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:07, on Zulip):

@oli was interested in helping with a lecture and that one was the only one we were aiming for

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:07, on Zulip):

https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/196385-t-compiler.2Fwg-learning/topic/hair.20and.20mir.20construction.20lecture

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:07, on Zulip):

The problem is that Niko seems oversubscribed, and I believe they are going to be on leave or traveling or something...

yes, he is very busy

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:08, on Zulip):

I'm also wondering more generally about the approach we take towards filling out the remaining missing parts of the guide

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:08, on Zulip):

I think we should approach experts (kind of using the experts map term here) to ask them one by one if they would be interested in giving a lecture on a specific topic

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:09, on Zulip):

Are the missing parts of the guide all remaining lectures or is there more to just the lectures?

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:09, on Zulip):

I'm also wondering more generally about the approach we take towards filling out the remaining missing parts of the guide

that's a good idea too

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:09, on Zulip):

Are the missing parts of the guide all remaining lectures or is there more to just the lectures?

there's more than what is in the lectures

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:09, on Zulip):

Ideally, we could have multiple people each owning a part of the guide that needs to be completed and finding the right people to give lectures on them

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:10, on Zulip):

@Amanjeev Sethi currently the biggest missing chapters are macros and codegen, neither of which has a lecture

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:10, on Zulip):

Ideally, we could have multiple people each owning a part of the guide that needs to be completed and finding the right people to give lectures on them

yeah

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:10, on Zulip):

I think the problem is the owning part there :)

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:10, on Zulip):

usually most of the people are busy and they may try to help but not take ownership of things

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:11, on Zulip):

that's why I think the lectures are a good model

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:11, on Zulip):

kind of tell me really quickly all the stuff you know about topic X

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:11, on Zulip):

and in some way we could lower the bar a lot

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:11, on Zulip):

shouldn't need to be a session that looks like preparing a talk or something like that

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

maybe we can think about different models

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

like, we will just ask you questions

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

or you just describe by navigating the code how X part works

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

I agree. Lectures and then their transcription is not perfect but at least is better than nothing or something taking so long that the material becomes outdated.

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

or stuff like that

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:13, on Zulip):

I think that some amount of preparation is necessary; otherwise, things will be very disorganized

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:13, on Zulip):

Can we say that anyone who has a lecture (obviously knows more about the subject), can asynchronously answer questions that are well-formed?

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:13, on Zulip):

and i think it will actually take longer for the expert

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:13, on Zulip):

I agree. Lectures and then their transcription is not perfect but at least is better than nothing or something taking so long that the material becomes outdated.

btw, since a while I'm having some troubles with the transcription word here :), it may be because I'm not a native speaker. But it sounds to me that we are literally transcribing word by word what happened on the video and that's not what should happen

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:14, on Zulip):

yes, you are right... we mean more of guide-ification

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:14, on Zulip):

I think you are right @Santiago Pastorino . It should be more like "accompanying article" of the lecture video?

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:14, on Zulip):

I think that some amount of preparation is necessary; otherwise, things will be very disorganized

yeah, that's ideal. The problem is ... I fear that people don't want to prepare stuff so it may be better to get something disorganized than getting nothing

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:15, on Zulip):

true

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:15, on Zulip):

I think you are right Santiago Pastorino . It should be more like "accompanying article" of the lecture video?

ok, let's start by changing that word everywhere and I'm gonna stop using the transcribing word, hehe

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:16, on Zulip):

works for me

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:16, on Zulip):

ok

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:16, on Zulip):

true

so, maybe we should aim to get people prepared for sessions like this but if it's hard maybe ask them to do something more informal

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:16, on Zulip):

so let's aim for a model were someone has a zulip session to just go through the relevant parts of the code with an expert... we can then guide-ify the zulip log

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:17, on Zulip):

Accompanying Guide :slight_smile:

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:17, on Zulip):

yes

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:17, on Zulip):

that's a different model that would be nice

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:17, on Zulip):

let's just chat about topic X

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:17, on Zulip):

:+1:

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:18, on Zulip):

we kind of ended talking about the general idea of getting lectures

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:18, on Zulip):

i have already seen some of this in zulip topics were niko helps people debug stuff

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:18, on Zulip):

yeah

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:18, on Zulip):

we kind of ended talking about the general idea of getting lectures

which is great

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:18, on Zulip):

:+1:

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

the agenda topic was organize lectures on codegen and macros

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

I can try to organize something with petrochenkov about macros...

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

wonder if there's something to say of that specific item

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

I can try to organize something with petrochenkov about macros...

cool

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

is there something else to discuss about this topic?

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

I do not know anything about codegen or dont know anyone I reach out or where to begin.

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

If I can get some idea on where to start, I can perhaps ask someone.

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

Not from me.

Tom Phinney (Jul 09 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

As a native American-English speaker and long-time author of IEC standards, I suggest the term "summarizing" rather than "transcribing", because you want to present the gist of what they said rather than word-for-word.

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:21, on Zulip):

@Amanjeev Sethi nagisa or alexchricton seem like the right people to ask about codegen

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:21, on Zulip):

A native speaker to the rescue :D

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:22, on Zulip):

another thing about getting more lectures

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:22, on Zulip):

maybe we should ping a lot of people in parallel

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:23, on Zulip):

mainly because takes time to organize this kind of lectures for people

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:23, on Zulip):

and it's hard to get people to do this stuff

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:23, on Zulip):

maybe a nice idea would be to collect lectures ideas with a respective person capable of giving a lecture

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:23, on Zulip):

and then we can start pinging them

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:24, on Zulip):

My inclination would be to ping one person at a time

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

hmmm, maybe you're right, but why?

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

if expert A sees that expert B could do the lecture instead, maybe they will just wait for B to do it

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

ahh no no, I'm talking about different topics

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

and then they both mutually do that

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

oh

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

yep

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

I agree there

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

like, let's build all the missing parts

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:26, on Zulip):

and assign a person that is able to do a lecture for each part

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:26, on Zulip):

like codegen, macros, mir construction, etc, etc, etc

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:26, on Zulip):

yes

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:27, on Zulip):

We do kind of have this in the form of the open issues

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:27, on Zulip):

it would be good to build a doc where all of that information is in one place though

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:27, on Zulip):

in some way this is a similar problem to finish this https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/pull/95

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:28, on Zulip):

it would be good to build a doc where all of that information is in one place though

I think that's what the github project is for

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:28, on Zulip):

hmm... i guess so

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:28, on Zulip):

https://github.com/rust-lang/rustc-guide/projects/2#column-5790779

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:29, on Zulip):

there are some ideas there

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:29, on Zulip):

would be nice to add more

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:29, on Zulip):

and to add names of people that may be able to give the lectures

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:29, on Zulip):

for instance

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:30, on Zulip):
- HAIR, MIR, and MIR construction (3 votes)
    - Covering the definition of MIR
    - Covering the HAIR construction
    - Covering MIR building
    - (This is actively changing as part of #t-compiler/wg-mir-opt, so that's a downside, but otoh maybe the coverage of MIR building would be helpful for Place 2.0 work)
    - Candidates: @nikomatsakis, @oli, @eddyb, maybe others?
Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:30, on Zulip):

there we have an idea and some candidates

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:30, on Zulip):

:+1:

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:30, on Zulip):

this is the one that @oli may be able to do, need to ping him again

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:31, on Zulip):

he changed jobs so he may not be able anymore, unsure :)

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:31, on Zulip):

ok, time is up

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:31, on Zulip):

does someone have something else to say or add?

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:31, on Zulip):

I guess a lot of this ties into how we want to assign work within the W

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:32, on Zulip):

*WG

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:32, on Zulip):

it seems to me that we didn't wrap up properly this meeting

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:32, on Zulip):

but I kind of need to run quickly

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:32, on Zulip):

I guess a lot of this ties into how we want to assign work within the W

yes

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:32, on Zulip):

There are a lot of issues on the repo that just need someone to shepherd them

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:32, on Zulip):

we can discuss in 2 weeks

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:33, on Zulip):

it seems to me that we kind of need a longer meeting to happen just once but to discuss better the vision of this project

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:33, on Zulip):

yes

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:34, on Zulip):

for instance ... we have like 15 or more lectures

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:34, on Zulip):

we doesn't seem to have a lot of work power to summarize them into the rustc-guide

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:34, on Zulip):

but we are discussing about new lectures :)

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:34, on Zulip):

lol yes

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:34, on Zulip):

which I think is great because it's more material but at the same time that won't solve the issue of putting the stuff into the guide

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 19:35, on Zulip):

i guess I'm coming from the angle of finishing the gaping holes in the guide, rather than improving many of the existing chapters

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:35, on Zulip):

anyway, hehe, I'd aim for a 1h meeting in two weeks

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:36, on Zulip):

i guess I'm coming from the angle of finishing the gaping holes in the guide, rather than improving many of the existing chapters

:+1:, maybe is better to think about the project as a whole, think about what would make the compiler learning experience better and start from there

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:36, on Zulip):

ok, need to leave

Santiago Pastorino (Jul 09 2019 at 19:36, on Zulip):

:wave: everyone

Amanjeev Sethi (Jul 09 2019 at 19:43, on Zulip):

Sorry I have too many things going on, bbye everyone!

nikomatsakis (Jul 09 2019 at 20:04, on Zulip):

Hey all, sorry, was busy during meeting

nikomatsakis (Jul 09 2019 at 20:04, on Zulip):

Regarding lectures, I think the thing to do might be to try and pick a relatively regular cadence and schedule people somewhat in advance

nikomatsakis (Jul 09 2019 at 20:05, on Zulip):

Maybe even pick a person and let them pick them a topic :)

nikomatsakis (Jul 09 2019 at 20:05, on Zulip):

Anyway everything sounded good to me

mark-i-m (Jul 09 2019 at 21:37, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis

Regarding lectures, I think the thing to do might be to try and pick a relatively regular cadence and schedule people somewhat in advance

Could you expound on this a bit? I'm not quite seeing what problem this would solve?

nikomatsakis (Jul 11 2019 at 15:37, on Zulip):

Maybe none, in this case. I've just often found it's easier to pick dates first and then look for people to fit the dates then the other way around.

nikomatsakis (Jul 11 2019 at 15:37, on Zulip):

In any case, something else I was thinking is that I would be willing to commit to a "once a month" lecture on some topic -- though likely not until august -- at least until we've run out of things I know to talk about.

Last update: Nov 15 2019 at 21:20UTC