Stream: t-compiler/wg-learning

Topic: meeting 2020.02.18


mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 17:54, on Zulip):

I've updated the rolling agenda, though I'm not sure if we are still using it... Please feel free to edit/update

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 18:15, on Zulip):

<-- new member. Possible to give a couple liner on the goals of the group and how someone new might get involved, areas where extra hands might be helpful?

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

(during the meeting)

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 18:26, on Zulip):

@Chris Simpkins Sure, will do

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 18:38, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

I've updated the rolling agenda, though I'm not sure if we are still using it... Please feel free to edit/update

the agenda looks good, probably going to start some things

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 18:39, on Zulip):

I think I'd avoid the What’s each of us working on and what’s the progress we are having? section and jump straight to the recap

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 18:41, on Zulip):

Sure, alternately, we could have an Announcements section 5 minutes before, like the T-compiler meetings...

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 18:42, on Zulip):

the problem is that this meeting is a 30 minutes meeting

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 18:42, on Zulip):

5 minutes is a lot :)

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 18:43, on Zulip):

Right, that's why I said _before_ the meeting :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 18:43, on Zulip):

why don't we start now with the Announcements, right right that :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 18:43, on Zulip):

let's do it now then

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 18:46, on Zulip):

Haha, yeah, that makes sense...

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 18:48, on Zulip):

Toolstate now tries to filter out spurious failures for linkchecking, so there should be fewer random pings, and maybe it will even get stable enough to be in rollups or in ehuss's periodic update PRs

amanjeev (Feb 18 2020 at 18:59, on Zulip):

I have a work meeting during that time, today. So I will skip it. Hopefully next time I can attend.

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 18:59, on Zulip):

Hi @WG-learning :wave:

If you're new or just lurking, the purpose WG-Learning is to create resources
for compiler developers to learn how the compiler works. Right now, that largely
means working on the rustc-guide.

If you're wondering how to contribute, stay tuned... part of this meeting is
about our recent efforts and where we would like to go!

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:00, on Zulip):

Ok, so let's get started

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:01, on Zulip):

I posted the agenda doc above

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:01, on Zulip):

Recap of directions from planning meeting

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:01, on Zulip):

So back in november (?) we had a planning meeting to figure out what we wanted to work on next

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:02, on Zulip):

At that time we were finishing the ty::Ty chapter (which has since been merged)

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:02, on Zulip):

The outcomes of that planning meeting were:

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:03, on Zulip):
mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:03, on Zulip):

Basically, we wanted to look at all the things lacking from the rustc-guide currently, and pick what to focus on next

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:04, on Zulip):
mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:04, on Zulip):

One of the conclusions we came to was that it is hard in the current guide to get a sense of how everything fits together

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:05, on Zulip):

Thus, we want to write an overview chapter to go at the beginning. To do this, we need to collect peoples' questions about how things fit together.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:05, on Zulip):
Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:06, on Zulip):

I think those were the 3 main things we've talked about in the meeting

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:07, on Zulip):

ok, @mark-i-m should we go over the rolling agenda bullets?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:07, on Zulip):

The idea was for the members of the WG to collaboratively read/edit the docs linked above and sync up every once in a while

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:07, on Zulip):

I'd say the main objective for this meeting should be to gather a set of actionable items for the next couple of months

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:09, on Zulip):

@mark-i-m ?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:09, on Zulip):

Oh (lol) I was waiting for you :P

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:09, on Zulip):

Ok

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:09, on Zulip):

I can do it no worries

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:09, on Zulip):

I saw you were doing it great :P

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:09, on Zulip):

I was fearing that we were in a deadlock :P

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:10, on Zulip):

so ...

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:10, on Zulip):

Came up with this master doc prioritizing things to do

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:10, on Zulip):

@mark-i-m what was your intention with that bullet point?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:11, on Zulip):

I guess I've entangled in a wrong way your Rolling Agenda

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:11, on Zulip):

anyway ... first part was about a recap

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:11, on Zulip):

but I've added things to discuss there

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:11, on Zulip):

if there something to talk about related to Came up with this master doc prioritizing things to do?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:12, on Zulip):

sorry, I got sidetracked for a moment

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:12, on Zulip):

I think about that point and the overview one, we can start a document with next tasks and stating more clear what's in those

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:12, on Zulip):

and avoid spending time during the meeting, maybe?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:13, on Zulip):

Sure

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:13, on Zulip):

I was just pointing to the doc

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:13, on Zulip):

yep

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:13, on Zulip):

ok

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:13, on Zulip):

**Walkthrough section with explanations of a PR, see https://github.com/rust-lang/rustc-guide/issues/584**

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:13, on Zulip):

I've added this one

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:13, on Zulip):

so ... I was checking some things about the guide and reading stuff

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:14, on Zulip):

found that the Walkthrough a contribution section we have is very nice

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:14, on Zulip):

but more like the general procedure

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:14, on Zulip):

I was thinking ... wouldn't also be nice to have something that drives you around the code for a big feature?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:14, on Zulip):

something that touches a lot of parts of the compiler

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:14, on Zulip):

I thought we intended to do that with the overview?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:15, on Zulip):

unsure if there's a nice and "easy" example like that

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:15, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

I thought we intended to do that with the overview?

well, maybe yes?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:15, on Zulip):

Perhaps Niko or eddyb would have suggestions?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:15, on Zulip):

but anyway we are agreeing it's a good idea

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:16, on Zulip):

we should be building a document meanwhile we have the meeting :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:16, on Zulip):

let me do that

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:16, on Zulip):

https://hackmd.io/ePV6Q68nQm6KzTYNUtUmYw

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:18, on Zulip):

Time-check: we are about 50%... do we have more to discuss about the overview doc? Basically, I think the action item here is to collect as many questions as possible. It might be good to advertise this widely (on Twir and Inside Rust for example)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:18, on Zulip):

let's continue

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:18, on Zulip):

yeah, we can keep adding stuff to that document and I'm probably going to merge with other docs

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:18, on Zulip):

Schedule discussion about LLVM/Codegen?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:18, on Zulip):

also

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:18, on Zulip):

Schedule other discussions about other topics?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:18, on Zulip):

I think we should schedule as many lectures as we can

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:19, on Zulip):

Some background here: previously, we though all of the "backend-y stuff" could be one chapter but after talking with nagisa, I think we should make these several chapters

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:19, on Zulip):

in particular I was talking with the people that knows more about parallel and we may do kind of a lecture about it

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:19, on Zulip):

@mark-i-m main question is ... which ones are you scheduling and which ones should I?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:20, on Zulip):

if you want you can keep coordinating with nagisa

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:20, on Zulip):

I'm not sure...

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:20, on Zulip):

and I can ask about

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:20, on Zulip):

ok

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:20, on Zulip):
LLVM (@Alex Crichton, maybe?)
monomorphization/type memory layout (@oli, maybe?)
parallel (@nikomatsakis, @simulacrum, @Alex Crichton)
mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:21, on Zulip):

Do we want to try to do all of those at the same time?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:21, on Zulip):

if we can I would

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:22, on Zulip):

but it's not easy and fast to coordinate these things :)

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:22, on Zulip):

I would suggest that we maybe pick two and focus on those (especially since we are already doing the overview chapter)

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:22, on Zulip):

hmm... ok, I'm curious why?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:22, on Zulip):

i.e. why all at the same time

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:22, on Zulip):

I agree with you

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:23, on Zulip):

the problem I see is that since you ask somebody about a lecture until it happens it may take a lot of time :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:23, on Zulip):

by doing all those if they happen we can add some stuff to our backlog

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:23, on Zulip):

Hmm... I see

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:23, on Zulip):

is true that there are a lot of lectures but the current ones doesn't seem to be a priority for us or urgent

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:24, on Zulip):

so currently we have zero lectures that we see as urgent

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:24, on Zulip):

ok, let's continue

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:24, on Zulip):

30 minutes for this kind of meetings is not enough :P

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:24, on Zulip):

Restart a sprint-like process?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:24, on Zulip):

I'd say yes, unsure how long the sprint should last though

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:24, on Zulip):

maybe a month?

JOE1994 (Feb 18 2020 at 19:25, on Zulip):

May I ask what the sprint-like process is ?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:25, on Zulip):

The suggestion we came up with last year was

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:25, on Zulip):

for the WG to work on something in "sprints" where we all focus on some topic for

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:26, on Zulip):

X months with a regular check in

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:26, on Zulip):

btw: should we document this?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:26, on Zulip):

(where X is TBD)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:26, on Zulip):

:)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:26, on Zulip):

unsure if our process is documented

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:26, on Zulip):

I don't think it is

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:26, on Zulip):

It's also kind of experimental

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:27, on Zulip):

yep

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:27, on Zulip):

I would actually suggest X=2 based on our previous cycle

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:27, on Zulip):

but it can be added to the WG page

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:27, on Zulip):

yeah 2 maybe better :)

Yuki Okushi (Feb 18 2020 at 19:27, on Zulip):

I agree with 2 months too

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:27, on Zulip):

Say month 0 is for gather questions and month 1 is for trying to answer them and polish?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:27, on Zulip):

:+1:

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:28, on Zulip):

let's assign the document our process task I guess

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:28, on Zulip):

So another action item would be to schedule a couple of meetings in the next to months

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:28, on Zulip):

does someone want to do it?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:28, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

So another action item would be to schedule a couple of meetings in the next to months

yes

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:30, on Zulip):

does someone want to do it?
I can do it, but probably will have to wait for the weekend

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:30, on Zulip):

great

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:30, on Zulip):

Discuss about the structure of the guide

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:30, on Zulip):

I have added this

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:31, on Zulip):

Does it worth to have a lot of procedures instead of the actual meat of Rustc? won’t be better to move those somewhere else or at least to appendices?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:31, on Zulip):

I was referring actually to a lot of sections that belong to chapter 1

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:31, on Zulip):

like https://rust-lang.github.io/rustc-guide/stability.html

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:31, on Zulip):

https://rust-lang.github.io/rustc-guide/implementing_new_features.html

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:32, on Zulip):

https://rust-lang.github.io/rustc-guide/stabilization_guide.html

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:32, on Zulip):

unsure if there are more

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:32, on Zulip):

I'd like the guide to be something that one can read from the beginning to the end in a cohesive way

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:32, on Zulip):

Hmm... personally, I have found some of these useful (e.g. the stabilization guide)

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:32, on Zulip):

but I do see your point

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:32, on Zulip):

I'm not saying is not

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:32, on Zulip):

maybe as appendices

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:33, on Zulip):

I'd like the guide to be something that you can read from the beginning to end and learning useful things

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:33, on Zulip):

I fear that procedures or things like that are more like a go to when you need it

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:33, on Zulip):

Hmm, yeah that makes sense

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:34, on Zulip):

I'm open to changes... the current organization is mostly my doing, so I'm a bit biased :P

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:34, on Zulip):

:)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:34, on Zulip):

we can add this as a task so we can discuss at some point

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:34, on Zulip):

well we couldn't cover most of the things we had

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:34, on Zulip):

unsure if we should continue for a bit or coordinate a next time

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:34, on Zulip):

or following async

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:35, on Zulip):

but our estimation of this meeting was very bad :P

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:35, on Zulip):

I think there are some action items we can work on async

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:35, on Zulip):

maybe the last thing ... to continue async

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:35, on Zulip):

Changing name to rustc-dev-guide or rust-compiler-dev-guide (rcdg?) as per https://github.com/rust-lang/rustc-guide/issues/470?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:35, on Zulip):

One last question: can someone right a blog post?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:36, on Zulip):

I'd change the name

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:36, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

One last question: can someone right a blog post?

a blog post about what exactly?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:36, on Zulip):

The discussion in that github thread seems to indicate that there is some concensus?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:37, on Zulip):

a blog post about what exactly?

The overview chapter effort?

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:37, on Zulip):

I think we could benefit a lot from getting more questions

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:37, on Zulip):

I'm going to try to organize a bit the documents we have about tasks and things and maybe call for another meeting

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 19:37, on Zulip):

I'd change the name

wg-education / rustc-education?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:38, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

I think we could benefit a lot from getting more questions

yes, this seems like a good idea

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:38, on Zulip):

@Chris Simpkins I think that's also a good point, but we were actually talking about the rustc-guide

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:38, on Zulip):

Maybe it should be "compiler development guide" or somethign

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:39, on Zulip):

it seems like we don't have volunteers for the blog post :P

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:39, on Zulip):

And maybe the WG should be WG-rustc-documentation or somethign

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:39, on Zulip):

we can do it collectively I guess

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 19:39, on Zulip):

apologies. I thought that I read something about changing the name of the group

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:39, on Zulip):

I think there is a discussion about that somewhere too

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:39, on Zulip):

Ok, we are somewhat over time now :clock:

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:39, on Zulip):

Sorry about that :P

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:40, on Zulip):

yeah, I can try to summarize some stuff on the hackmd

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:40, on Zulip):

and share here

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 19:40, on Zulip):

I'd be happy to participate in a blog post but I am very green to the whole area of rustc so am unlikely to be the best fit for this right now

Yuki Okushi (Feb 18 2020 at 19:40, on Zulip):

I'd be happy if the hackmd links are in one place.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:40, on Zulip):

yeap, I want to organize our stuff a bit better

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:41, on Zulip):

Chris Simpkins said:

I'd be happy to participate in a blog post but I am very green to the whole area of rustc so am unlikely to be the best fit for this right now

maybe you can start a document with a blog post idea and we can all collaborate

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:41, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino Cool thanks!]

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:41, on Zulip):

@Yuki Okushi I think that was the intent of the compiler-team repo, but it hasn't really turned out that way

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:41, on Zulip):

the idea would be like a call for action, for people to help with the Overview chapter

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:42, on Zulip):

@Chris Simpkins I guess the blog post could be something like ... we are writing an Overview chapter, here is an idea of what could look like, please give your insights on things you would include

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:42, on Zulip):

unless @mark-i-m have a different idea :)

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:42, on Zulip):

SGTM

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:42, on Zulip):

maybe start with something around that area and we can all collaborate

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 19:42, on Zulip):

Sounds good. You like to use HackMD for this?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:42, on Zulip):

ok, going to share what I did once I fix the document mess :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 18 2020 at 19:43, on Zulip):

Chris Simpkins said:

Sounds good. You like to use HackMD for this?

whatever you like where we can collaborate, mainly we use HackMD yeah, but whatever is fine

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:43, on Zulip):

@Chris Simpkins that works for me

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 19:44, on Zulip):

Got it. OK, sounds good. I will begin work on it later this week. I'll post a link here when a document is available for collab work

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 19:46, on Zulip):

Target audience is anyone out there who might want to pitch in on the effort, a call to action aimed at those individuals?

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 19:48, on Zulip):

and request for feedback/input on what topics are important to readers out there. That's what I gather from discussion today

Chris Simpkins (Feb 18 2020 at 19:50, on Zulip):

I have to run and will catch up on the rest of the thread here later tonight. Thanks all!

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:53, on Zulip):

Thanks all for coming to the meeting :wave:

mark-i-m (Feb 18 2020 at 19:53, on Zulip):

Sorry we badly estimated the time

Last update: Apr 03 2020 at 17:20UTC