Stream: t-compiler/wg-meta

Topic: meeting 2020.04.14


Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:03, on Zulip):

@T-compiler/WG-meta :wave:

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:03, on Zulip):

Hi @Santiago Pastorino

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:03, on Zulip):

So, I was talking to @simulacrum about the need for a "windows group"

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:03, on Zulip):

I was also discussing with @Josh Triplett re: the Tier RFC, and how I want the requirement for a new Tier to be that it offers support

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:04, on Zulip):

We didn't do the area meeting proposal this cycle but maybe we can move forward a bit anyway, at least adding a windows group?

simulacrum (May 14 2020 at 18:04, on Zulip):

I was going to get around to pinging about windows soon but keep not finding time

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

Last time we created this tracking issue

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/283

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

I think the main question was what "label" to use

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

well that and we were talking about rebranding "ICE-breakers" to "ping groups" or something

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

since the current name is really being stretched too far :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

:+1:

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

it seems like O-windows is the label to use

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

yeah that exists, right

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

seems pretty easy

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

maybe I'll just spend these minutes doing some of those steps

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

maybe we'll just cal this a "platform team" or something?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

e.g., t-compiler/platform-windows

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

or target I guess

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

though I suppose that's a bit of a bulky name to type :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

yep, target seems good :)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

at least, the GH team should have something shorter

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

well @rust-lang/target-windows is probably good

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

or @rust-lang/windows

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

:+1:

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

I guess just windows is beter :)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

OK!

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

yes

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

uh we do need to have a few members eventually

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

mm the cleanup crew has a lot of folks in it, that's great

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

we should remember to periodically re-advertise these

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

yes

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

do you have some windows members in mind, right?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

so, one question

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

is windows a "marker team"

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

or is it more of an "official working group"

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

I think maybe it's actually the latter?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

i.e., we were talking about making "teams" for the areas and stuff

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

that would be listed on the website

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

and where being added is more a recognition for work done ..?

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

is there an area? :P

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

as opposed to the "ICE-breakers", where it's really just a way to notify folks

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

I think this should not be an ICE Breaker group

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

I agree

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

I didn't realize it until just now

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

I guess that's exactly what cleanup is for

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

I think ideally you'd actually see these groups

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

getting more active

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

i.e., you could imagine a "windows group" taking steps to improve windows bugs

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

and the overall experience

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

if there's a Windows issue cleanup I guess could also take care of making the report look better and figure out some first things

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

and not just responding to bugs reports

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

yep

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

agree

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:13, on Zulip):

fascinating

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:13, on Zulip):

maybe rustup will get faster someday

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:13, on Zulip):

we will need at least a nominal lead

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:13, on Zulip):

I can put myself to start

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

but I won't do anything :P

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

maybe @Wesley Wiser is willing/interested

simulacrum (May 14 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

I think we need two separate group's - one for organizing but also another for pinging

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

hmm

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

which should we start with and how do we explain this

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

if Wesley Wiser is not interested add me, I don't even have windows but once there's somebody there I can just remove me

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

seems like we should start with "pinging", but can you clarify the distinction a it better?

simulacrum (May 14 2020 at 18:15, on Zulip):

Yeah - so - I think most people who we could add don't have bandwidth to do design work

simulacrum (May 14 2020 at 18:15, on Zulip):

But drive by commenting on issues that have been nominated is more viable

Wesley Wiser (May 14 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

I don't think I'm a good choice for lead. I have Windows boxes and I have used Windows for a long time but I've never done C\C++ on Windows. I'm happy to try my hand at fixing Windows issues though :slight_smile:

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

actually having "two groups" is sort of reasonable in another way

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

though really I think what would be best

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

is to have one group with another section

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

i.e., something like

simulacrum (May 14 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

We also want to split decision makers from "people with knowledge" I think

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):
[people]
leads = [ ... ]
members = [ ... ]
ping = [ ... ]
nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

simulacrum said:

We also want to split decision makers from "people with knowledge" I think

yes, this

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

this is kind of what I was getting at

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

maybe s/ping/notify/

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

but the idea would be "anybody can add themselves to the ping/notify group"

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

still, we can also just have two distinct files, seems fine

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

:+1:

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

at least to start

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

notify seems better than ping :)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

I will call it target-windows-notify I guess

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

[people]
leads = [ ... ]
members = [ ... ]
ping = [ ... ]

where do you plan to add this?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

sorry, what I meant was

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

if we had a toml file in the rust-lang/team repository

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I think this woud lbe a generally useful feature

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

e.g., for the async-await group

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

yeah

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I might like to be able to notify "everybody who cares about async await"

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

while also having "members of the group who've put in time and effort"

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I'd say that we should have that for all the areas :)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

right, same for any area

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino you added the "metagroups" to team earlier ..

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

yes

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

how would members be different from notify?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

the idea would be that members are, well, members.

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

I meant, I understand that semantically

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

they are added to github teams, mailing lists

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

the notify is just for rustbot ping windows

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

(is that the command? that's an argument for "ping")

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

well but usually people do stuff like

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

cc @rust-lang/wg-mir-opt

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

yeah, we have to train them not to do that

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

that is wrong

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

or at least, it is semantically distinct

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

hmm we could have 2 groups

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

there is a reason we didn't use github teams

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

I think that reason still applies

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

a group that receives pings and a group that's more like admin

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

we don't want to make random people members of the org

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

ok ok

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

makes sense

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:23, on Zulip):

agreed but I was clearly seeing the semantical implicancies not the practical ones, now both are clear :)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:23, on Zulip):

I agree people may do this wrong..

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

but I think it'll be ok

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

we'll learn

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

but what should we do today :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

agreed

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

there are a lot of things like that

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

we're starting to use libs-impl but not everyone is aware of it

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

in the morning re-labelled some issues and have added a text explaining that

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis do we have something else to discuss?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

in other words, should I go ahead and create a "meta team" for windows (target-windows-notify)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

and then maybe we make a target-windows team later

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

and then later we are able to merge them because we add a new feature?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

seems like yes

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

yes

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

also

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

and then later we are able to merge them because we add a new feature?

what did you mean here?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

if we added the ping = [...]

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

then we could merge target-windows-notify "meta-team" into target-windows as the ping = [...] members

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

also, I am being quite inconsistent with notify aren't I

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

(one side note, I think we should probably list these groups on our web page)

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

I may have been in a bit of a bikesheed but one thing about notify and ping, is that ping is something that happens in a recurrent way :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

which is not the way I'd notify people

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

(one side note, I think we should probably list these groups on our web page)

:+1:, so they shouldn't be marker groups

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:41, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino I think notify is fine, I just think it should match "@rustbot notify foo" for example

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:41, on Zulip):

I'm not sure what you mean about "shouldn't be marker groups"

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:42, on Zulip):

I guess by now I think the idea of marker groups is probably bad and we should just have teams that can have "notify" participants

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:42, on Zulip):

but given our current setup, marker groups is correct :)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:42, on Zulip):

I'm not sure what a "member" of the cleanup crew is, but .. so what...

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 18:43, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

I'm not sure what you mean about "shouldn't be marker groups"

marker groups are not included on the website

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:43, on Zulip):

I know, I'm saying that maybe they should be

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:43, on Zulip):

it doesn't matter

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:44, on Zulip):

but it seems like it'd be nice to include the cleanup crew under "t-compiler"

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:55, on Zulip):

so I was thinking -- maybe we should make an MCP to describe our plan?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:55, on Zulip):

I feel like we've spun up enoguh variations that I'm a bit confused

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:56, on Zulip):

but also I want something to point people at

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:56, on Zulip):

I was just talking to @Ryan Levick a bit about it over privmsg

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 18:56, on Zulip):

(hi @Ryan Levick) :)

Ryan Levick (May 14 2020 at 18:58, on Zulip):

Hello :wave:

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 19:10, on Zulip):

started dropping notes here

https://hackmd.io/TriAwtjpQ5iCs37QvUdYVg

DPC (May 14 2020 at 19:38, on Zulip):

sorry had another call so didn't attend :D

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 20:16, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

started dropping notes here

https://hackmd.io/TriAwtjpQ5iCs37QvUdYVg

just got back again, reading the notes

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 20:23, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis :+1: from me

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 20:23, on Zulip):

unsure if something was removed by mistake or you didn't complete it but there's a phrase at the end that says ...

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 20:23, on Zulip):
Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 20:23, on Zulip):

and nothing else :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 20:24, on Zulip):

but seems good

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 20:24, on Zulip):

my main doubt is how would this play with the areas idea?

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 20:24, on Zulip):

would we need to change something when we introduce areas?

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 20:25, on Zulip):

would it be a windows area? if so, would we need to rename some stuff or do you think that everything would fit nicely?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 21:39, on Zulip):

I just imagine we have "areas of the compiler" and "targets" but the two are variations of the same thing

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 21:40, on Zulip):

i.e., for each target, we have an "area"

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 21:40, on Zulip):

but we also have areas like "borrow checker"

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 21:52, on Zulip):

:+1:

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 21:53, on Zulip):

OK, I rewrote the doc to be clearer, @Santiago Pastorino, @simulacrum, @Ryan Levick take a look maybe?

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 21:56, on Zulip):

I think this seems pretty good

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 21:56, on Zulip):

I wonder if it's worth just modifying the team repository

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 21:56, on Zulip):

doesn't seem .. that hard? :)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 21:56, on Zulip):

I remember @Santiago Pastorino you were able to do it fairly quickly last time

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 21:57, on Zulip):

yeah seems pretty good

Ryan Levick (May 14 2020 at 21:57, on Zulip):

Heading to bed now but this looks good. I can share this tomorrow with folks at Microsoft to see who wants to get involved

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 21:57, on Zulip):

I guess modifying the team repo should be easy :)

nikomatsakis (May 14 2020 at 21:57, on Zulip):

also cc @Pietro Albini on the team repo side of things :) -- you may want to check this doc to see what horrible things we are planning to do to the team repo

Santiago Pastorino (May 14 2020 at 21:59, on Zulip):

I guess once we have settled I can try to make this happen on the team repo, unless someone else want to do it :joy:

Pietro Albini (May 14 2020 at 22:52, on Zulip):

sounds good!

Pietro Albini (May 14 2020 at 22:52, on Zulip):

just a thing, target-windows might be more consistent with wg-, icebreakers-...

Ryan Levick (May 15 2020 at 09:27, on Zulip):

One thing regarding the Windows target group. I believe there is an informal Windows working group. It would be good to acknowledge and explain how this relates to that. https://github.com/rust-windows/wg

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

I was not aware of that group!

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

I suspect they have a broader focus, but that is interesting

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 14:09, on Zulip):

Maybe open an issue on the repo :)

Last update: Sep 28 2020 at 15:00UTC