Stream: t-compiler/wg-meta

Topic: meeting 2020.04.30


Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

@T-compiler/WG-meta :wave:

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis you around for this meeting?

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:05, on Zulip):

:wave:

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

Hey

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

sorry, was finishing up something

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

hey, no worries

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

So...

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

there are a few things going on, right?

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:07, on Zulip):

I was going to ask if you had something outstanding?

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):
nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):
nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):
nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

the last two seem "related"

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

and it's actually an interesting point

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:08, on Zulip):

great summary, I was writing those and you beated me on all of them :)

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

in particular diagnostics ICE breaker is important

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

i.e., we've thought of "Areas" as corresponding to directories, but I think that something like "windows" (or "target x") is kind of a cross-cutting concept

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

maybe we should focus on adding some new ICE-breaker grups?

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

it's not that hard

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

i.e., we've thought of "Areas" as corresponding to directories, but I think that something like "windows" (or "target x") is kind of a cross-cutting concept

yeah, I guess a mix of those is better

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

I would say diagnostics + windows

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

are two "no brainer" choices

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

:+1:

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

the problem with areas it's like is never ending :)

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

the other random thing is that there are a lot of MCPs now and I've not had any time to review or interact with them :P

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

yeah, it's hard to figure out how that should work

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

the only way I could thing is doing something that engages more people that know how to categorize this and add areas

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

adding ICE-breaker groups we can more or less do immediately

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

do we have a checklist for this

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

otherwise it's kind of a never ending task

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:10, on Zulip):

if not, can we make one and put it in forge...

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

re: areas I think we should consider saying "this is not meant to be an exhaustive list"

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

i.e., what if we just create some areas that are obvious

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

we sort of have one, llvm

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

I'd say, why don't we have a specific meeting about that?

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

could be next meta meeting

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

agreed

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

maybe if you can use a bit more time than 30 mins

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

like 31

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

:P

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

lol

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

kidding but maybe it takes a bit more time

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

we could try to start a bit early and take an hour or something

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

done

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

then let's focus on ice breakers

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

(except I can't next week)

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

you were asking about a checklist

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

(but I could go longer)

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

you meant, next week let's start same time and go longer?

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

right

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

here is one: https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/207

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:13, on Zulip):

that is, a checklist

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:13, on Zulip):

ok, going to change calendar

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

done

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

let me see the checklist

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

one good thing to do in this meeting is create issues

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

going to create the diagnostics one

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:14, on Zulip):

ok, I'll make the windows one

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:15, on Zulip):

also I guess we should close compiler-team#207

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/282 created for ICEBreaker-Windows

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

the name "ice-breaker" isn't really that appropriate for that but oh well ;)

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:16, on Zulip):

actually I wonder if..

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

so we have

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

O-windows

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

and O-windows-gnu and O-windows-msvc

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

maybe we should use O-windows as the label?

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

Diagnostics one compiler-team#283

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

we could rename the ICEbreaker groups to just "ping groups"

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

and maybe actually make one that is focused on ICEs and call that the ICE-breakers :)

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

what would the ping groups do?

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

they get pinged :)

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

I saw @RalfJ was confused about the meaning of ICE breaker in the sense that they thought it was something related to ICEs

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

for various purposes

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

yeah it's definitely confusing

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

I remember seeing a comment from them some days ago

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

I just like it too much :)

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

hehehe

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

but basically it would be like "ping groups are a lightweight way to help out"

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

window breakers and arm breakers are awesome btw

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

here is a list

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

strike force group :P

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

ooh arm-breakers yes

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

ok no

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

but it's funny :)

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

it's brilliant, it was @pnkfelix idea

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

arm-unbreakers

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

hehehe

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

arm-surgeons? xD

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

lol

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

anyway I am :+1: to renaming to ping groups

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

or something neutral like that

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

and I don't think making extra ICEBreaker- labels will be very helpful

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

e.g., we have A-diagnostics

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

so we can just re-use that, no?

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

we could make a separate label group for them

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

I mean we have ICEBreaker-Foo labels

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

yeah, I guess it would be nice to think a bit about the name, a thing that I consider important is to not use a name that undermines the value that the work people belonging those groups do

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

I'm kind of arguing for removing them, I guess, or at least not always adding them

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

in particular I think that ultimately

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:21, on Zulip):

ah forgot about that one

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

we could of course just rename the ICEBreaker-Foo labels

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

unsure what's the value of labels

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

yeah .. true

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

well to allow people search for them I guess

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

I think I imagined "oh people will want to be able to search after the fact"

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

but I think what I'm saying is,

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

for areas at least

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

we could have a label-ping the same way we do for wg-prioritize

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:22, on Zulip):

I feel like it'd be useful to (a) have fewer of them oh dear god we have so many

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:23, on Zulip):

and (b) be able to simultaneously tag the issue as A-foo and ping folks who like to fix bugs in that area

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:23, on Zulip):

like, isn't that kind of what the "areas of the compiler" work is sort of all about :)

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:23, on Zulip):

yes

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:23, on Zulip):

and in that case it's definitely useful to be able to search later

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:23, on Zulip):

it's great where every single thing is kind of the same problem :)

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

...great, that's one word for it

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

it means that things have gone through some thought :)

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

so, anyway, to bring this back to the present, I still think we want to add some groups you can subscribe to and get notified of things

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

I don't care too much about the labels, we could even remove them if we wanted and figure it out later...

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

agreed

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:25, on Zulip):

i.e., I dont' want to let perfect be enemy of the good

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:25, on Zulip):

+1000

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:25, on Zulip):

we can revisit this after we think a bit more about all the areas of the compiler work and related things

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

btw compiler-team#235, I guess can also be closed

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

yeah, probably

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

I closed it, who knows

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

although I do think

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis unsure if you have something else but I guess about meta we can just try to move the ice breaker groups creation forward

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

it probably behooves us to periodically (say, once a quarter or something)

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

write a blog post that's like

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

"hey, these groups exist! you should join them!"

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

because nobody really reads CONTRIBUTING.md, do they?

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

yeah community management is important :)

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

really just a periodic "ways to get involved in the compiler" post is what I mean

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

yeah and in particular I think we just need to repeat the material every so often

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

i'll push more people towards joining the wgs :slight_smile:

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

ideally it would be great to constantly keep encouraging people, share things, ask for help and stuff like that

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

Santiago Pastorino said:

unsure if you have something else but I guess about meta we can just try to move the ice breaker groups creation forward

yeah I think the next focus for us should be this work of making ping groups for now, and maybe consolidating into a concept of areas

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

so... I guess the question is who's going to work on those issues

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

I wonder if we should try to advertise that

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

which issues?

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

e.g. https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/282

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

Santiago Pastorino said:

ideally it would be great to constantly keep encouraging people, share things, ask for help and stuff like that

rust compiler community management I'd call it, from what I've seen some people do it, I've seen tweets from you, oli and others :)

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:30, on Zulip):

yes, sometimes I do it, it needs a dedicated person

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

or 10

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

hehe yes

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

well we've talked about that in private some days ago

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

but yeah

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

i can help with that

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

e.g. https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/282

also compiler-team#283

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:31, on Zulip):

I can try to take care of compiler-team#283

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

at least move a bit of that forward

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

but I'm kind of behind a lot of things

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

tomorrow is may 1st, here is a huge HUGE holiday

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

I think that for these groups--

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

well, at least for the windows one--

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

the rsutc-dev-guide chapters is probably pretty minimal

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

like, for llvm and for bisect etc, there was useful advice to give

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:32, on Zulip):

but for windows..? I'm not sure what it would be

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

but I think just a placeholder that describes the idea: Help to test out, diagnose, and discuss Windows-specific issues

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

is fine

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

we should get involved @Esteban K├╝ber about Diagnostics group, at least if we create the group he needs to be aware of it :)

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

lol uh yes

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

I guess by doing that Diagnostics will get a lot of help

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

I think that in this case we could write a useful chapter, but it'd be ok to leave it more "TBD"

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

from what I've seen in other ICE breakers groups

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:33, on Zulip):

just mention that #t-compiler/wg-diagnostics exists

nikomatsakis (Apr 30 2020 at 18:34, on Zulip):

side note that...um...this exists

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:34, on Zulip):

yeah, as you've said, that would not be perfect but would be good and better than what we have

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:35, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

just mention that #t-compiler/wg-diagnostics exists

this also ties with what you've mentioned about areas, labels, breaker groups and now we add working groups to the combo :)

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

can we get an alphabet for icebreaker labels? xD Icebreaker- seems to big :D

DPC (Apr 30 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

and anyway we will be renaming them

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:36, on Zulip):

I think at some point it would be great to think about a better structure of areas, leaders, big projects, small projects, people that triage that areas and people that fix stuff in that areas

Santiago Pastorino (Apr 30 2020 at 18:37, on Zulip):

I guess people that triage those areas and people that fix stuff in that areas are our ice breakers (or whatever we want to call them)

Last update: Jan 22 2021 at 13:15UTC