Stream: t-compiler/wg-meta

Topic: meeting 2019.03.21


nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:02, on Zulip):

Hi @WG-meta -- meeting :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:04, on Zulip):

Paper document

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:04, on Zulip):

Nice, @davidtwco, I see you opened some PRs already =)

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:05, on Zulip):

Had some time last night.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:05, on Zulip):

All right let's see

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:06, on Zulip):

In terms of our current goals...

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:06, on Zulip):

It seems lke the first one is...sort of done?

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:07, on Zulip):

I haven't checked in with @mw about the list of concrete steps they are producing through making their out-of-tree crate, but otherwise, yes.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:07, on Zulip):

And we would want to incorporate the results from the GH perms meeting

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

In terms of integrating bors/highfive with that out-of-tree crate?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

I guess the question is, should we make a task in this area to do those things? (Was @mw planning to make such a list?)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

In terms of integrating bors/highfive with that out-of-tree crate?

I meant more like in terms of the instructions for creating a crate

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

i.e., you should give teams compiler, etc etc write access

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

iiuc we basically still don't have the "here are the steps to follow" list for setting up a new crate, right?

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

Sure, when that starts being managed by the rust-lang/team repository.

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

iiuc we basically still don't have the "here are the steps to follow" list for setting up a new crate, right?

We have some very high-level steps.

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

Update here, ask infra about X, etc.

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

But not "to set up this thing, do that".

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

Sure, when that starts being managed by the rust-lang/team repository.

does it matter where it is managed?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:10, on Zulip):

i.e., we still want the same perms in the end, right/

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:10, on Zulip):

that is, the same teams to have perms

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:11, on Zulip):

i.e., we still want the same perms in the end, right/

Yeah, I agree. I was just thinking that the steps would end up being "add this to the team repository in some way".

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:11, on Zulip):

I think that in order to consider the task done we should have one of these two things:

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:12, on Zulip):

Sure, when that starts being managed by the rust-lang/team repository.

oh, you meant that we would add the crate to that repository somehow?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:12, on Zulip):

that's...maybe true, I hadn't really thought about that

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:12, on Zulip):

Sure, when that starts being managed by the rust-lang/team repository.

oh, you meant that we would add the crate to that repository somehow?

Well, that repository will manage GitHub permissions eventually I assume.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:12, on Zulip):

plausibly, but in the meantime we should just say to give the following teams write access

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:12, on Zulip):

good instructions in the rustc-guide

I think the instructions for setting up the out-of-tree crate (what we're still in-progress with and working with mw on their crate to produce) will be best suited for the compiler-team repository. But there is a issue in the rustc-guide for working with out-of-tree crates as a contributor.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:13, on Zulip):

ok, that seems fine

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:13, on Zulip):

regardless I think we should open an issue with a checklist

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:13, on Zulip):

of things to document

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:13, on Zulip):

That makes sense.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:13, on Zulip):

and/or just do it :) but if we want to combine the efforts of many people, maybe open an issue

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:13, on Zulip):

and we can also maybe ask for volunteers

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:14, on Zulip):

then we can cross this item off our list and move to a next goal :P

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:14, on Zulip):

I feel ok abut doing it "lazilly" --

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:14, on Zulip):

i.e., whoever does the step next, should document it

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:14, on Zulip):

OK, next work item was:

Expert list

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:14, on Zulip):

I think we are sort of done with this, although I've started to think the name is not great

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:15, on Zulip):

I was thinking maybe we should be calling it something like "Who to ask for help" :)

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:15, on Zulip):

I'm happy with either name.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:15, on Zulip):

Let's leave it for now and just call it done

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

Journeyperson role

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

So I spent a bit of time trying to edit the doc etc

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

I feel like I want to have a bigger conversation about this

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

I was thinking though that my plan can really be separated into two parts

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

First part, the "easy part" in some sense, is to create a role that I was thinking of calling "compiler team regular" or "regular contributor" (regular as in "at a steady pace")

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

hey, just arrived

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

catching up with the chat

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

This would be a relatively minimal thing -- basically a way to recognize people who are regularly involved. There would also be a GH alias so we can ping compiler team "regulars and members"

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

I was going to add these folks to the team repo so they are on the website

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

This would be the group that can self-assign and label things w/out needing a bot. Whereas irregular/one-off contributors would use the bot?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

Yep

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

(and r+ according to your proposal)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

My vision is roughly this: if you are showing up week after week at a WG, then after some number we would add you to this group.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

Yeah, so, that's a bit less clear

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

I am inclined to give r+ but I'd also be ok with that being another level

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

But I do think that we should make a point of explicitly delegating reviews to regulars

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

at minimum

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I think we should avoid making too many levels.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I sort of do too

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I am inclined to say that we give r+ but we sort of ask people to use it responsibly, much like we do now

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I don't feel like it's been a cause of any major problems in the years until now

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

So I spent a bit of time trying to edit the doc etc

where is the doc you're talking about?

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

sorry I'm lacking some context

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

link

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

No worries @Santiago Pastorino

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

In the doc that @davidtwco just linked, I was proposing a kind of active mentorship program

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

What I am saying now is that I still want to do that, but I want to separate that out so we can discuss it a bit more

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

In the meantime, I want to create a recognized level for regular contributors

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

This seems like something we could do this week =)

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

seems good

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

I think we should avoid having hard requirements for most of these levels. In the sense that we shouldn't have "N weeks participation", but rather "someone recognizes your regular contributions and offers regular-contributor-level".

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

I think what the document proposes seems good

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

I think we should avoid having hard requirements for most of these levels. In the sense that we shouldn't have "N weeks participation", but rather "someone recognizes your regular contributions and offers regular-contributor-level".

agreed

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

OK so what are the concrete steps here

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

I have a list of people I think would be good for this role

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

I'm not sure about the naming section

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

I already cleared them with the compiler team some time back

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

I like better what the path to membership says

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino take a look at this section, those are the names I prefer now

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

but that is a good point

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

I think the bikeshed is sort of important

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

so, one thing I could see doing

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

is to write an RFC

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

which would give us a chance to float these names, and also give recognition to this

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

in fact, that iwas what I wanted to propose, but I forgot

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

ahh yeah

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

I remember now :)

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

I like that section and not the names section :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

Yeah the stuff under that is older

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

more like "brainstorming" that led me to this

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

I don't think it would be a very long RFC but that's ok

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

:+1:

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

Here is my question, does one of you want to (help?) write it? :) I am guessing that @Santiago Pastorino you are too busy and anyway English is not your native tongue.

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

Compiler team regular => Compiler team contributor

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

I'm always more than happy to help.

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

Here is my question, does one of you want to (help?) write it? :) I am guessing that Santiago Pastorino you are too busy and anyway English is not your native tongue.

I'm absurdly busy, hehehe

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

Compiler team regular => Compiler team contributor

I considered that but I thought that "contributor" was a bit .. too generic?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

But I'm pretty open to other people's thoughts

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

I wanted to emphasize that it's more than "you have contributed"

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

but like "you contribute regularly"

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

I guess when you contribute frequently you're contributor

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

Yeah, maybe.

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

and a member is kind of a different distinction

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

one-off compiler contributor => regular compiler contributor => compiler team member in-training => compiler team member => @nikomatsakis

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

lol

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

I usually put @eddyb at the pinnacle ;)

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

:P

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

they hate that :P

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

hehehe

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

something else that occurred to me

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

I was trying to write a blog post about what we've been doing

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

and I got bogged down trying to define sort of "what is a working group"

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

and "when does it make sense to start one"

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

like, when does a project cross the threshold?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

where I am going with this is that I feel like we hvae some foundational work to do, in terms of documenting those things

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

I also feel like that could be another RFC.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

Using RFCs here is a bit funny, in that I don't feel like we have to in order to gain legitimatcy, it's sort of an "internal" decision, but then again

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

it's a good way to talk about our motivations

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

and get all that stuff out there

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

I'd normally define it in terms of how long it would take or how many people are involved. If it's a multi-month project for one person then tracking that and giving them an opportunity to check-in and ask for assistance/ideas is valuable. If it's a multi-person project then it's good for attracting contributors (hopefully) and for organizing that work.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

interesting

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

I agree with those things, though I probably would have put the threshold below "multi month"

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

to something like "multiple PRs"

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

then again the process currently has enough friction

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

that it's probably higher than that

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

That depends on the size of the PR.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

so maybe we start with multiple months :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

That depends on the size of the PR.

yeah, of course

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

if it's an eddyb pr...look out :P

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

sorry, I just feel like picking on @eddyb today

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

it's because they're so rarely on Zulip to defend themselves

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

/me cruel

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

:')

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

anyway, thoughts about this? I definitely think at minimum we need to define a WG etc

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

and I feel like...why not make RFCs

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

(Again, I don't see them being super long)

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

in that case I guess it's fine :)

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:33, on Zulip):

I think that makes sense.

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:33, on Zulip):

mainly if it's not a complex thing to do

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:33, on Zulip):

Are you hoping it is general enough to cover t-lang wgs too?

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:33, on Zulip):

I always wonder where is the line of doing things using RFCs or not

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:33, on Zulip):

and if not using an RFC is even allowed

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:33, on Zulip):

Are you hoping it is general enough to cover t-lang wgs too?

I was not

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:33, on Zulip):

but that's an interesting thought

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

I feel though that lang WGs probably function a bit differently

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

I don't have opinions either way, just clarifying.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

actually it's a good question

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

for another reason

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

one of the tricky bits I think is that many working groups kind of span the two teams

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

and I feel like we haven't fully "reckoned" with that

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

and I feel like we haven't fully "reckoned" with that

Need to get them over on Zulip... :P

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

e.g., I think this is true of wg-traits and was true of wg-nll

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

uh yes, yes we do.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

so, in a way, a combined RFC might be nice.

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

What are the concrete next steps that we can write down in the paper doc and work on before next week then?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

I guess there wouldn't be a lot of specifics about how a WG functions anyhow

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

Good question

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:36, on Zulip):

yeah, I want to call this meeting to a close anyway

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:37, on Zulip):

I'm trying to thik. I guess an obvious thing is

(a) we can create repos for draft RFCs

(b) try to make an outline of what material each RFC would have ?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:37, on Zulip):

I feel like the "compiler team regular contributor" thing might be a good place to start

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:37, on Zulip):

maybe we should just focus on that because I'd like to move on it

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:37, on Zulip):

it could document e.g. the procedure to propose something (probably "email the team", but still) and some other things like that

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:37, on Zulip):

we can worry about the other thing later

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:38, on Zulip):

so here's the question :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:39, on Zulip):

should we just put the draft RFCs etc into rust-lang/compiler-team/wg-meta directory?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:39, on Zulip):

it feels a bit...strange

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:39, on Zulip):

we can just make a custom repo I guess

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:39, on Zulip):

While drafting it I don't see the harm in doing that, it's the easiest option.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:40, on Zulip):

While drafting it I don't see the harm in doing that, it's the easiest option.

which are you referring to?

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:40, on Zulip):

should we just put the draft RFCs etc into rust-lang/compiler-team/wg-meta directory?

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 21 2019 at 18:40, on Zulip):

from my point of view, whatever is fine meanwhile drafting it :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:40, on Zulip):

ok.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:41, on Zulip):

all right, so let's do that and see how it feels

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:41, on Zulip):

so a first task is to copy the RFC templaet into the directory with a suitable name :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:41, on Zulip):

and (After that) maybe to sketch out in bullet point form what each section would contain?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:41, on Zulip):

I'd be up for that

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:41, on Zulip):

Is the intent that it will be kept there or eventually posted to rust-lang/rfcs?

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:41, on Zulip):

Or is it just an RFC conceptually?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:42, on Zulip):

I had planned to post it as a real RFC

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:42, on Zulip):

but then, once approved, it would become part of the compiler-team repo somewhere

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:42, on Zulip):

not the RFC itself

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:42, on Zulip):

I mean documentation about the levels

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:42, on Zulip):

but hopefully a lot of the text from the RFC we can just lift wholesale

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:43, on Zulip):

OK. sounds good. let's call it

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:43, on Zulip):

anything else for this week to add to the list?

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:43, on Zulip):

er, who is making the outline? am I doing that? :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:44, on Zulip):

I'll make a starting one, I can do that in a few minutes.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:44, on Zulip):

then we can maybe elaborate it a bit as we go

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:44, on Zulip):

I'm happy with this approach. I just know that I'll be a little cautious about writing that up because there will inevitably be some details that need decided and I think I probably shouldn't be the one making the decisions. If you give me a outline to flesh out, I can do that though.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:44, on Zulip):

great

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:45, on Zulip):

let's give @Santiago Pastorino a break this week, they're busy organizing a conference :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:45, on Zulip):

fin?

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:45, on Zulip):

fin

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:46, on Zulip):

oh, on that point

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:46, on Zulip):

I think we sohuld cancel next weeks' meeting

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:46, on Zulip):

as both @Santiago Pastorino and I will be otherwise occupied I think :)

davidtwco (Mar 21 2019 at 18:46, on Zulip):

Sure.

nikomatsakis (Mar 21 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):

calendar edited

Last update: Nov 18 2019 at 01:50UTC