Stream: t-compiler/wg-meta

Topic: WG template


nikomatsakis (Feb 21 2019 at 21:06, on Zulip):

@davidtwco so it became clear that the lang team wants to share the compiler team template too =)

nikomatsakis (Feb 21 2019 at 21:07, on Zulip):

I started this topic to discuss any questions that come up

nikomatsakis (Feb 21 2019 at 21:07, on Zulip):

(One thing I imagine might be on there, if we have a membership list document, is some link to said document)

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 16:32, on Zulip):

@WG-compiler-meta I've started work on this here.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 16:34, on Zulip):

I think I've just written what we discussed and other things I'd seen mentioned. If I've went off the reservation anywhere then let me know.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 16:42, on Zulip):

May have forgotten or missed things too.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 16:43, on Zulip):

I also used a concrete example as I was struggling to provide a decent example otherwise.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 16:43, on Zulip):

Happy to change any of it.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:27, on Zulip):

@davidtwco cool, looking now

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):

@davidtwco I'm wondering a bit about the "how to get involved section"

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):

I was writing a comment as a review but maybe easier to just discuss here

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):

a few thoughts:

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):
nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):
nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):
nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):

and/or find a bug (we should link to the list) and then reach out on Zulip?

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):

That makes sense. I can change it to that.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):

something I did in salsa (at least a bit) was to create (and link) a topic

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:47, on Zulip):

i.e., in every E-mentor bug

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:48, on Zulip):

I would also create a dedicated topic

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:48, on Zulip):

so I can link to it from the bug

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:48, on Zulip):

to help people get over the "wtf is this zulip thing" reaction

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:48, on Zulip):

i.e., if you're interewsted in this, leave a message in this topic

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:48, on Zulip):

I'm not sure how well that worked because I don't know how well links to topics work :P

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:48, on Zulip):

but it seems like "not much extra work" if you're already writing mentoring instructions

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 18:48, on Zulip):

I can add that as a recommendation.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:48, on Zulip):

something I did in salsa (at least a bit) was to create (and link) a topic

/me sheds a tear for not having time to keep up with the salsa repo / zulip right now

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:49, on Zulip):

otherwise, I'm thinking it looks pretty good

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:49, on Zulip):

it might be nice to make it a bit more "generic" (i.e., not so tightly tied to NLL), to help people see how to apply it to themselves more

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:49, on Zulip):

but I'm not sure

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:49, on Zulip):

seems ok as a start

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 18:50, on Zulip):

it might be nice to make it a bit more "generic" (i.e., not so tightly tied to NLL), to help people see how to apply it to themselves more

I tried to start it like that, but so much of it depends on the description and details of a working group that it would have ended up being a couple headers.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:57, on Zulip):

Yeah

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:57, on Zulip):

It seems good

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:57, on Zulip):

Let's try to use it and see what results

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 18:58, on Zulip):

I left my review but it's all stuff we already talked about

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 21:18, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Updated the PR.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 21:51, on Zulip):

@davidtwco it looks quite nice

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 21:51, on Zulip):

you still have it marked as "draft", are there other things you had in mind to do first?

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 21:52, on Zulip):

I was anticipating that there'd be more requested changes, that's all.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 21:53, on Zulip):

Also hadn't had a chance to try that feature of GitHub yet.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 21:53, on Zulip):

Un-drafted it now.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:00, on Zulip):

@Aaron Turon did you want to take a look at the "working group draft template" that @davidtwco whipped up? it's available at <https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/pull/7>. I was inclined to merge for now and maybe make more edits as we try it out a few times

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:00, on Zulip):

But I remember you had an interest

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:01, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis sure! lemme take a quick look and see if anything jumps out

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:01, on Zulip):

The only thing I'd like to change, if I could figure out how to make it work, would be to make it less concrete/more general. Not worth blocking over if we're happy with it.

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:02, on Zulip):

oh i actually think it's great for it to be concrete -- makes it a lot easier to grok

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:03, on Zulip):

this looks amazing :100:

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:03, on Zulip):

so lemme cross-check this with the list we made in lang

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:05, on Zulip):

ok so a couple things maybe worth adding to the template:

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:06, on Zulip):

also, just to check, is the idea that NOTES.md contains all meeting notes? it might be good to instead have a subdirectory or something

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:07, on Zulip):

https://github.com/rustwasm/team has maybe some additional inspiration

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:07, on Zulip):

anyway, this looks like a great starting point!

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:07, on Zulip):

also, just to check, is the idea that NOTES.md contains all meeting notes? it might be good to instead have a subdirectory or something

For now, that's the case. This wasn't something we explicitly wanted though.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:08, on Zulip):

I think we wanted to avoid something like this - it's somewhat explained in this part of the diff. That said, if we do want this, we could link to the GitHub and Zulip groups which might be better as they won't require a PR to add oneself.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:09, on Zulip):

Will add this.

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:10, on Zulip):
  • a "roster" somewhere of the people who are considered active WG members

I think we wanted to avoid something like this - it's somewhat explained in this part of the diff. That said, if we do want this, we could link to the GitHub and Zulip groups which might be better as they won't require a PR to add oneself.

yeah @nikomatsakis had said something similar; but i think it's very valuable to just have a list of folks to reach out to for e.g. scheduling meetings etc -- just a lightweight contact list

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:10, on Zulip):

https://github.com/rustwasm/team has maybe some additional inspiration

There's a lot of great stuff here. Will see if there's anything I can steal from it.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:12, on Zulip):

yeah @nikomatsakis had said something similar; but i think it's very valuable to just have a list of folks to reach out to for e.g. scheduling meetings etc -- just a lightweight contact list

For now, I think being able to ping @wg-nll (for example) on GitHub or Zulip would be sufficient to get in touch with everyone for things like scheduling. But I'm happy to revisit this if we find a list of active participants in the working group would be valuable to have on the page after trialing this.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:13, on Zulip):

I am torn about the whole membership thing for sure

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:13, on Zulip):

@davidtwco yeah i agree that some means of giving a persistent ping for folks is all we need here

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:14, on Zulip):

yep, it's just really unclear to me what is the right way to achieve that

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:14, on Zulip):

in the end it prob doesn't matter all that much as long as it's something

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:15, on Zulip):

a github group seems good -- a lot of WGs open issues ahead of each meeting to collect agenda, and it'd be super easy to ping folks there etc

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:17, on Zulip):

yeah

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:17, on Zulip):

it's also good because being a member of the org means you can be assigned to issues

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:17, on Zulip):

it's also nice to have a zulip user group so you can ping the whole group

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:17, on Zulip):

I am torn about the whole membership thing for sure

To clarify, my only real reservation with formal membership is the conflict between it being a way to recognize active participants and just being everyone who was ever involved in the working group for any length of time. The GitHub group for the actual NLL wg is quite large. It's possible though that my concern about that is just overblown.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:17, on Zulip):

kind of want both

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:18, on Zulip):

so part of my concern is that I just don't want to put myself into the position of having to distinguish

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:18, on Zulip):

there's a lot of "grey area"

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:18, on Zulip):

and I feel like, in the end, it's not really that necessary most of the time

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:18, on Zulip):

I also just don't want to add more overhead :)

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:18, on Zulip):

this is why I like framing it more as a "contact list" than a "member list"

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:19, on Zulip):

that said, there is definitely value in recognizing people, and I think we should think about good ways to do that

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:20, on Zulip):

that said, there is definitely value in recognizing people, and I think we should think about good ways to do that

Like you said in yesterday's meeting, the journeypeople discussions are probably a good place to work this out.

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:30, on Zulip):

@Aaron Turon, @nikomatsakis added a new commit with requested changes and one or two other things that the wasm repo inspired.

Aaron Turon (Feb 22 2019 at 22:31, on Zulip):

@davidtwco looks great, thanks!

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:36, on Zulip):

Merged

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:36, on Zulip):

Oh, we should update that table

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:36, on Zulip):

it's already out of date :P

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:41, on Zulip):

@davidtwco r? https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/pull/8

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:42, on Zulip):

What about this working group?

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:42, on Zulip):

we don't have a directory yet

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:42, on Zulip):

I guess it doesn't have a directory so-

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:42, on Zulip):

I was planning to add to the table when we add a directory

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:42, on Zulip):

but feel free to open a PR with that :)

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:42, on Zulip):

I've got to run soon

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:42, on Zulip):

next week's goal for me is to try and populate these directories more...

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:43, on Zulip):

...or to encourage others to do so

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:43, on Zulip):

Are the labels right for that group? Isn't there an A-traits or does the WG not look at those?

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:43, on Zulip):

There is one

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:44, on Zulip):

Oh, I didnt' realize the table listed labels

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:44, on Zulip):

There's also no meeting in the meeting column but there's a calendar event so I assume there is one.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:44, on Zulip):

editing markdown tables directly is not that great :)

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:44, on Zulip):

yeah, bah

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:44, on Zulip):

we should definitely move to jekyll

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:44, on Zulip):

Doesn't make editing the table any easier?

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:45, on Zulip):

it does because you can write metadata

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:45, on Zulip):

and write some code to render it

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:45, on Zulip):

I like using the Tabular plugin for Vim to clean up tables.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:45, on Zulip):

e.g. a yaml file or something

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:45, on Zulip):

also, one other thing is that the table lists "UTC" time zones

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:45, on Zulip):

but those have to be updated

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:45, on Zulip):

I guess that's true. I was still thinking of tables in the markdown and not the metadata.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:46, on Zulip):

around Daylight Savings Time

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:46, on Zulip):

which is a drag

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:46, on Zulip):

no really great solution for that

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:47, on Zulip):

also, one other thing is that the table lists "UTC" time zones

Does UTC change with daylight savings?

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:47, on Zulip):

afaik it does not, but our meetings do :)

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:47, on Zulip):

afaik it does not, but our meetings do :slight_smile:

Oh yeah.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:47, on Zulip):

I wonder if we should not list the time

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:47, on Zulip):

it would be nice if we could just link to the calendar event

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:48, on Zulip):

not sure if that's possible

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:48, on Zulip):

e.g., Mondays

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:48, on Zulip):

it would be nice if we could just link to the calendar event

I avoided listing the time in the actual working group page by saying "refer to the calendar".

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:48, on Zulip):

yeah I kind of want to avoid the 'many sources of truth' problem, basicalyl

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:48, on Zulip):

Maybe we could just say "Weekly"?

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:48, on Zulip):

that works, and link to the calendar

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:48, on Zulip):

I'd keep it saying "optional" if that is the case.

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:50, on Zulip):

updated PR

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:51, on Zulip):

ok, I have to go now

nikomatsakis (Feb 22 2019 at 22:51, on Zulip):

feel free to edit that branch and/or merge

davidtwco (Feb 22 2019 at 22:51, on Zulip):

Looks good, merging.

Cem Karan (Feb 24 2019 at 01:25, on Zulip):

To clarify, my only real reservation with formal membership is the conflict between it being a way to recognize active participants and just being everyone who was ever involved in the working group for any length of time. The GitHub group for the actual NLL wg is quite large. It's possible though that my concern about that is just overblown.

Would it be possible to maintain a priority queue of members? E.g., your priority is the date you last took some 'significant action', which affects how close you are to the head of the queue. This would allow inactive members to sift to the bottom, with anyone that hasn't done a significant action in X days getting a ping asking them if they still have any interest in the group. Replying affirmatively is a significant action, so you get bumped to the head of the queue.

This wouldn't be that good for displaying a list of members, but I'm sure that we can come up with some better metric (average number of significant actions over the past week, some kind of weighted sum over all significant actions that factors in how recent the action was, etc.) for ordering the list of members.

As for what a 'significant action' is, I don't know, but it sounds like something that would be within WG-Meta's charter to discuss! :wink:

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:46, on Zulip):

hey, just have finished reading all the wg-meta stuff, sorry but I had some crazy days since thursday

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:46, on Zulip):

I have some thoughts

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:47, on Zulip):

I remember @nikomatsakis saying that I'd be nice to have some document that helps leads to do their work

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:47, on Zulip):

I feel like we covered a lot about meetings and organization but not that much in the how to lead direction

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:48, on Zulip):

also about expectations that rust compiler team or wg-leads may have about participants

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:49, on Zulip):

in any case I feel that we could collectively try to come up with ideas about how to better lead and how to better participate on wgs

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:50, on Zulip):

regardless of how to run a meeting and stuff like that, which is important too of course :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:50, on Zulip):

I guess sharing tips on how to help people, how to keep everyone motivated, etc, would be nice

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:53, on Zulip):

and another minor thing, that is a bit related but more general, there's a lot of stuff that happens in dropbox paper documents, but all this information is now on github, is there a plan to move stuff to github? when one should use paper and when it's better github for docs?

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 26 2019 at 15:53, on Zulip):

/cc @nikomatsakis @davidtwco @Aaron Turon ^^^

Cem Karan (Feb 28 2019 at 13:37, on Zulip):

I just noticed @blitzerr's question about what PGO is in https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/PGO.20WG/near/159567689, which got me thinking about working group names. I think we should avoid abreviations/acronyms where possible; it makes it easier when perusing Zulip and other list-oriented services to determine what group you might wish to join.

Last update: Nov 18 2019 at 00:40UTC