Stream: t-compiler/wg-meta

Topic: meeting 2019.02.28


nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 18:59, on Zulip):

Hello @WG-compiler-meta! Time for weekly meeting. =)

So, we had a little pre-meeting discussion already.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:00, on Zulip):

@davidtwco You mentioned doing a bit of prep work, so maybe you want to post some stuff in here?

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:00, on Zulip):

I actually didn't find time to write my thoughts down before this.

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:00, on Zulip):

You'll just need to hear them half-baked and on-the-fly I'm afraid.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:01, on Zulip):

I was thinking also bit about some of the things @nikomatsakis mentioned

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:01, on Zulip):

but couldn't reach very far :)

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:01, on Zulip):

Oh man I just realized I've not even found time to eat lunch and it's 14:00 here

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:01, on Zulip):

So yeah I've been busy too :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:01, on Zulip):

:)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

I had lunch around 3.20pm ;)

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

that said, I think we don't necessarily have to have a long meeting right now

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

I was building a list of expert map

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

In the other thread, I post this as a vague "roadmap" of things we should be working on

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

and thinking about journeyperson mainly

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

Oh, awesome!

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

As long as we come up with some things we want to work out before next week and work out who is handling what then I think we'll be fine.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:02, on Zulip):

Exactly

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:03, on Zulip):

:+1:

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:03, on Zulip):

I updated the list above a bit

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:03, on Zulip):

I also have some thoughts regarding the journeyperson stuff. I think it would be beneficial to clarify what we want to solve with it. Otherwise, I can spend some time this week writing up some of the policy stuff that was discussed at All Hands (third party crates, etc.) and any other ideas we have.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

cool

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

Hmm so

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

I was thinking that I would be game to start making such a list

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

that is, people who might be on it

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

I'd like to "shop it around" a bit to compiler team also

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

is there some places where I should look to know all the areas of the compiler and who is more or less around

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

But I definitely like the idea of @davidtwco of brainstorming some about what the list means :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:04, on Zulip):

I mean, do you have any tip on that for where to look for

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

I was thinking a few things:

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

But I definitely like the idea of davidtwco of brainstorming some about what the list means :slight_smile:

Yeah, I think it would be useful to understand what problems we're trying to solve from a compiler-team member perspective - how it affects them - and from a journeyperson perspective - how it affects those people.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

I mean, do you have any tip on that for where to look for

honestly I'm not sure, I think maybe starting to make a list in a dropbox paper and posting the link in #t-compiler would be agood start

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

ask people to sign themselves up

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:05, on Zulip):

or create areas that are missing :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:06, on Zulip):

yeah seems good

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:06, on Zulip):

(or maybe use hackmd vs paper)

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:06, on Zulip):

Regarding the problems a journeyperson thing might solve @davidtwco, I see a few things:

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:07, on Zulip):

is more or less in the lines of what I was thinking

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:08, on Zulip):

The only other thoughts regarding journeyperson stuff I had was surrounding criteria and the ettiquette around it (e.g. if I were a journeyperson I'd want to make sure I don't misrepresent what that means).

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:08, on Zulip):

I was also wondering, should a journeyperson help others that are starting to get their way around the compiler?

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:11, on Zulip):

The only other thoughts regarding journeyperson stuff I had was surrounding criteria and the ettiquette around it (e.g. if I were a journeyperson I'd want to make sure I don't misrepresent what that means).

Part of this [the ettiquette], to the extent that they care about it, is what the compiler team are comfortable with.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:11, on Zulip):

Yeah, so, I think it's a good opportunity for us to kind of describe the expectations

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

Oh, that reminds me

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

I think that journeypeople might also be a time when you (hopefully) start doing reviews and things

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

I'm not sure exactly what "and things" might mean

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

But basically I think I would like it to mean more than "you know things about compiler"

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:12, on Zulip):

but also "you are willing to commit some time to helping things run"

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:13, on Zulip):

The same should probably be true for compiler team members :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:13, on Zulip):

yes, that sounds fine from my point of view

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:13, on Zulip):

(Like compiler team, I would also imaine it's the sort of thing you can readily step into an alumni role)

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:13, on Zulip):

This all feels like a good set of questions to bring to a steering meeting

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:13, on Zulip):

Or other forum for wider discussion

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:14, on Zulip):

one of the questions may be, what's the difference between journeypeople and full member?

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:14, on Zulip):

Maybe there is more room for us to get tighter -- especially around how to structure the "expectations"

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:14, on Zulip):

This all feels like a good set of questions to bring to a steering meeting

Perhaps that can be what we want to achieve for the week w/r/t journeypeople? Work out what those questions are.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:14, on Zulip):

My assumption would be something like:

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:15, on Zulip):

yeah, exactly, seems reasonable

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:15, on Zulip):

Perhaps that can be what we want to achieve for the week w/r/t journeypeople? Work out what those questions are.

Yes. It feels lke something that somebody could drive but which is also a conversation we'll be having

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:15, on Zulip):

i.e., somebody tries to write up what we said so far

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:15, on Zulip):

maybe that sparks a few ideas, we refine, etc

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:16, on Zulip):

I can write something down

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:16, on Zulip):

so let me see if I got it correctly

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:17, on Zulip):

One mechanism I thought would work well for journeypeople, inspired by Python's practices, would be to have compiler team members propose new journeypeople, and then have that proposer mentor them in the things that a journeyperson role would bring (reviews, bors, other responsibilities, etc) and then another compiler team member signs off on it to make it official.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:17, on Zulip):

we want to bring ideas and questions about what is a journeyperson, and what it should do?

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:18, on Zulip):

Particularly that there's a designated person to help someone with the new responsibilities - only if we feel that would be necessary though.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:18, on Zulip):

One mechanism I thought would work well for journeypeople, inspired by Python's practices, would be to have compiler team members propose new journeypeople, and then have that proposer mentor them in the things that a journeyperson role would bring (reviews, bors, other responsibilities, etc) and then another compiler team member signs off on it to make it official.

seems like a good idea

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

I really lke this idea

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

Though, I'm cautious that I don't propose anything too wild like that without the compiler team proper feeling it is appropriate.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

I also like that full team members then have a "responsibility" of their own

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

yes

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

well we'll see what others think :)

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

The mechanism for journeyperson to full member could work similarly.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

seems great

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

my sense is that

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:19, on Zulip):

the idae is very good

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

But we should try to be specific

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

how does the full member incorporation decision actually work?

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

and it doesn't have to be like a "ton" of work

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

I think that having a member nominate someone else resolves questions regarding membership criteria (if there were any).

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

how does the full member incorporation decision actually work?

presently someone nominates over e-mail and we discuss, but the criteria are not especially well defined

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:20, on Zulip):

yeah

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:21, on Zulip):

seems good that someone proposes people

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:21, on Zulip):

at the same time some basic criteria seems like something desirable

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:21, on Zulip):

presently someone nominates over e-mail and we discuss, but the criteria are not especially well defined

Ah, I didn't know that.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:22, on Zulip):

I basically try to keep my eye out for people who've been playing a leadership role, helping to "take over" some part of the compiler

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:22, on Zulip):

I am enthused about (a) making this a bit more formal and (b) helping encourage and support people in doing that more than we do

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

So, it seems like we should basically try to go over this conversation and 'condense' it -- we mostly talked about role of journeypeople, right?

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

In other words, somebody could produce a summary of this meeting and upload to compiler-team repo, and also sort of at the same time they are producing a "draft" of journeypeople questions

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:26, on Zulip):

yeah, I can do that

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:26, on Zulip):

Sounds great

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:26, on Zulip):

Actually that reminds me

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:26, on Zulip):

Are there policies other than this from the All Hands that I could write up into the repo this week?

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:27, on Zulip):

Shall I adjust the "time" for this meeting to 30 minutes?

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:27, on Zulip):

I feel like 1hr is too long

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:27, on Zulip):

Shall I adjust the "time" for this meeting to 30 minutes?

I don't mind either way.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:27, on Zulip):

Are there policies other than this from the All Hands that I could write up into the repo this week?

Actually, good point

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:27, on Zulip):

iirc we spent a lot of time discussing the policy/best-practice around things being mono- vs poly-repo

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:28, on Zulip):

that'd be a good thing to summarize

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:28, on Zulip):

similarly, I was thinking that we need a blog post or summary of what happened at the all hands

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:28, on Zulip):

it had never occurred to me that this could be, to some extent, delegated :)

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:28, on Zulip):

I can work on summarizing that discussion into the repo this week.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:28, on Zulip):

Awesome

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:28, on Zulip):

I'll look into the other meetings, maybe their respective leads can work on summaries where appropriate

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:29, on Zulip):

Did the end-of-day summaries ever get used?

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:29, on Zulip):

They may have been posted on u.r-l.o and I'd have missed them.

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:36, on Zulip):

I dno't think they usually get used for much

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:39, on Zulip):

meeting over, I guess? :)

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:39, on Zulip):

gonna write up a summary of the meeting

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:40, on Zulip):

It looks like that 's us then. Thanks for the meeting.

Task summary:
@Santiago Pastorino to handle the expert's list.
@davidtwco to handle writing up whatever policies he can think of.
@nikomatsakis to work on initial group of journeypeople and then all of us (we should make a shared document for this) to come up with the unresolved questions that we want to pose to the compiler team about journeypeople?

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:40, on Zulip):

yep thanks

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:41, on Zulip):

sorry, I got distracted eating lunch:)

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:41, on Zulip):

sorry, I got distracted eating lunch:)

I was eating dinner throughout the meeting, it's an unfortunately timed meeting all round.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:42, on Zulip):

It looks like that 's us then. Thanks for the meeting.

Task summary:
Santiago Pastorino to handle the expert's list.
davidtwco to handle writing up whatever policies he can think of.
nikomatsakis to work on initial group of journeypeople and then all of us (we should make a shared document for this) to come up with the unresolved questions that we want to pose to the compiler team about journeypeople?

and I write a summary of this meeting, correct? :)

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:42, on Zulip):

Yes, thanks! :)

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:43, on Zulip):

I was eating dinner throughout the meeting, it's an unfortunately timed meeting all round.

we can adjust the timing here

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 28 2019 at 19:43, on Zulip):

sorry but from time to time language barriers make me need to confirm obvious stuff :P

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:43, on Zulip):

never hurts

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:43, on Zulip):

we can adjust the timing here

Normally it's alright, I just planned poorly today.

davidtwco (Feb 28 2019 at 19:45, on Zulip):

To clarify, @nikomatsakis, are the journeyperson questions for the steering meeting tomorrow or triage next week?

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:50, on Zulip):

@davidtwco mm I don't know! I was hoping to post something with possible topics for the steering meetings, and I thought that drilling more into some of those topics might be good

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:50, on Zulip):

but I've got to get on that

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:52, on Zulip):

I'm doing it now

Pietro Albini (Feb 28 2019 at 19:56, on Zulip):

btw I realized I don't have the bandwidth to follow this wg :(

Pietro Albini (Feb 28 2019 at 19:56, on Zulip):

you can remove me from the group here on zulip

nikomatsakis (Feb 28 2019 at 19:58, on Zulip):

@Pietro Albini done

Pietro Albini (Feb 28 2019 at 19:58, on Zulip):

o/

Last update: Nov 18 2019 at 01:35UTC