Stream: t-compiler/wg-meta

Topic: charter


nikomatsakis (Feb 13 2019 at 10:26, on Zulip):

So I've been a bit busy the last few days but I wanted to try and get started a bit with this "meta" discussion. I feel like there are a ton of burning concrete questions that I would like to act on. But probably the first thing to define is the scope of the working group / discussion.

My view of the meta working group "charter" is something like this:

nikomatsakis (Feb 13 2019 at 10:27, on Zulip):

I think we can kind of adjust on the fly. I don't see this being a huge time sync. But there are a number of questions I would like to find the answers to very soon. Examples:

nikomatsakis (Feb 13 2019 at 10:27, on Zulip):

But maybe -- backing up a bit -- another good question is .. who is interested in participating in this?

To that end, cc @T-compiler/meeting :point_up:

mw (Feb 13 2019 at 10:32, on Zulip):

I am

davidtwco (Feb 13 2019 at 10:33, on Zulip):

...who is interested in participating in this?

:hand:

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 13 2019 at 15:34, on Zulip):

I am interested too

Cem Karan (Feb 13 2019 at 19:17, on Zulip):

I'm interested in listening in, but probably can't contribute much.

Sunjay Varma (Feb 13 2019 at 19:25, on Zulip):

I am also interested

pnkfelix (Feb 13 2019 at 20:30, on Zulip):

if I can make it then I'd like to join in, but I'm not sure I want to constrain the schedule (nor take an evening meeting)

nikomatsakis (Feb 14 2019 at 15:30, on Zulip):

Sorry for failure to follow-up. I was thinking of scheduling an initial meeting with the goal of helping to elaborate out the "goals and questions" this working group aims to add, and to kind of roughly prioritize them. I was hoping to do an initial brainstorm of my own thoughts and encourage others to do the same -- maybe make a Google form?

I suppose we can schedule that meeting for next week. I think Zulip is probably the way to go here, this doesn't feel like it requires video.

davidtwco (Feb 14 2019 at 15:31, on Zulip):

That sounds good to me.

Cem Karan (Feb 14 2019 at 16:04, on Zulip):

Just noted at https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/.2354818.20weekly.20meeting.202019-02-14/near/158540857 that there doesn't appear to be a global calendar of different meeting dates/locations that everyone can see. Maybe that's something that this group could discuss as well.

nikomatsakis (Feb 14 2019 at 16:10, on Zulip):

@Cem Karan yes, as I noted, great idea. This is precisely the sort of thing I want to be collecting in the leadup to the meeting

nikomatsakis (Feb 14 2019 at 16:10, on Zulip):

How should we do that? I could create a hackmd doc or something where people can just add stuff... but maybe a google form?

nikomatsakis (Feb 14 2019 at 16:10, on Zulip):

(actually, maybe just having a "suggestion box" is a good idea in general)

davidtwco (Feb 14 2019 at 16:11, on Zulip):

Google forms aren't particularly easy to edit after submission. If I threw my ideas in a form submission then I'd be almost guaranteed to come up with some more tomorrow after submitting.

Cem Karan (Feb 14 2019 at 16:12, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Thanks! One more task to add to the set of thigns to do is to collect a set of tools that seem to work everywhere. Where I work, they block both dropbox and google docs (to what extent that they can). Maybe we should collect a set of tool suggestions, and then have everyone test to see what they can reach from their various work sites...

Cem Karan (Feb 14 2019 at 16:12, on Zulip):

Need to run, wife is waiting for Valentine's Day! :wink:

nikomatsakis (Feb 14 2019 at 16:14, on Zulip):

@Cem Karan I've never heard of anyone blocking those tools before, but that is good to know

nikomatsakis (Feb 14 2019 at 16:15, on Zulip):

Google forms aren't particularly easy to edit after submission. If I threw my ideas in a form submission then I'd be almost guaranteed to come up with some more tomorrow after submitting.

I imagined it being ok to submit more than once, but let's just do a HackMd doc -- or people can prepare their own gists too

davidtwco (Feb 14 2019 at 16:17, on Zulip):

I imagined it being ok to submit more than once, but let's just do a HackMd doc -- or people can prepare their own gists too

A google form is probably fine if we can enable multiple submissions. Particularly as a general suggestion box.

nikomatsakis (Feb 14 2019 at 16:19, on Zulip):

yeah, I just sort of like the idea of a suggestion box generally -- though maybe not for this. The idea being that we periodically review it at steering meetings etc

nikomatsakis (Feb 15 2019 at 16:27, on Zulip):

OK, I think we should do our first meeting next week. Here is a doodle poll for what times can make it:

https://doodle.com/poll/3apztsaipkd797n3

I figure this will be on Zulip.

nikomatsakis (Feb 18 2019 at 14:13, on Zulip):

Posted meeting on the compiler calendar: Thu 2-3pm UTC-05:00. I'll try to prepare an agenda etc before then but it'd definitely be good if people take some time to think about suggestions, idea, or just problems they've had in terms of participating in the compiler team -- maybe write those out onto a hackmd document or gist. If you send me the links, I'll try to compile them and make them available.

PS, it's a holiday here, so mostly AFK.

nikomatsakis (Feb 20 2019 at 11:06, on Zulip):

I did some brainstorming yesterday and wrote up a gist of thoughts/themes that seem important to me. They are in no particular order. I may go back and edit and try to sort:

https://gist.github.com/nikomatsakis/6d6ff59259ee8e69171b91c3c3e27165

davidtwco (Feb 20 2019 at 11:15, on Zulip):

I threw together a gist last week with some thoughts and potential questions worth answering too. There's a decent amount of overlap with @nikomatsakis's gist.

Disclaimer: not all of these are things that I'm personally concerned about, it's just an attempt to enumerate things that might be worth thinking about.

https://gist.github.com/davidtwco/5b7a9db9c18b0a82ce3f1a7b1a685433

nikomatsakis (Feb 20 2019 at 11:17, on Zulip):

Seems like we should try to form a draft agenda -- I can try to do this, but @davidtwco if you have time to help that would also be super. I was thinking of trying to prioritize things that would help us get the "overall feel" of the system. So maybe:

nikomatsakis (Feb 20 2019 at 11:18, on Zulip):

It occurs to me it's probably worth talking a bit about the "role" of this WG, and that perhaps I should put some thought into recruiting and/or advertising for the meeting -- but I think maybe for first meeting we should not try to tackle complex topics (e.g., defining the role of a journeyperson in more depth) but rather try to setup achievable tasks (like: adjust website to list videos or something) and then we can try to get people involved in helping us do those tasks?

nikomatsakis (Feb 20 2019 at 11:18, on Zulip):

Here's a paper for us to collect notes and things from first meeting:

https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Compiler-Meta-WG--AX6iE~hXnDGbQ5Jh5IlFoo7PAg-vnEJ2iD7MCc515MW2oR22

davidtwco (Feb 20 2019 at 11:18, on Zulip):

setting up the website

Do you mean rust-lang.org or the compiler-team repo's README?

nikomatsakis (Feb 20 2019 at 11:19, on Zulip):

well I meant the latter, but I do think there is a tiny amount of overlap in that I want to get the compiler-team's repo more visible from the main website

nikomatsakis (Feb 20 2019 at 11:19, on Zulip):

still I think we have a bit of work to do "locally" before we start trying to figure out how to tie that in to the main site

davidtwco (Feb 20 2019 at 11:43, on Zulip):

Perhaps the initial meeting should focus on understanding and enumerating the problems that the working group aims to solve and any constraints we want on the solution space (ie. don't want to introduce unnecessary bureaucracy or administrative overhead).

Then interested parties in the working group could discuss the various problems we aim to solve (in Zulip topics or compiler-team github issues?) and propose various solutions to them. And by the next meeting (next week or the week after perhaps), there can be a small summary of each issue and solutions, some discussion and talk about how to move forward with these solutions - how to make them visible (ie. website), how to implement them - some concrete next steps.

:shrug:

nikomatsakis (Feb 20 2019 at 11:52, on Zulip):

Seems like getting a sense of our overall scope is good. I think also good is kind of coming up with some immediately workable things. I'm generally wary of trying to plan too far in advance -- things usually become clearer once you've gotten going a bit.

davidtwco (Feb 20 2019 at 11:54, on Zulip):

My only reservation with my suggestion is that it is perhaps too slow going and even slightly redundant as some problems we've already decided on solutions to - e.g. working groups, journeypeople - there are just some unresolved questions about those. Though it would clarify the scope of the wg.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 20 2019 at 13:10, on Zulip):

I can also help to put up an agenda if needed, unsure if you have already done it

nikomatsakis (Feb 20 2019 at 17:21, on Zulip):

As far as I know we've not =) I created a DropBox paper but I wanted to go through the gists and kind of collect and collate the items into categories

nikomatsakis (Feb 20 2019 at 17:21, on Zulip):

i.e., detect duplicates

davidtwco (Feb 20 2019 at 17:21, on Zulip):

I've actually just started adding some basic agenda items to the paper you linked earlier.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 20 2019 at 17:52, on Zulip):

ok, seems good

davidtwco (Feb 20 2019 at 18:00, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis I've added only a few bullet points as I don't know exactly what you want to discuss. But I have de-duplicated and listed ideas/questions from our gists.

Santiago Pastorino (Feb 20 2019 at 18:03, on Zulip):

the main topics are organizational in the sense of structures, roles, responsibilites and team work and in the sense of tools to use in order to keep everything on track

nikomatsakis (Feb 21 2019 at 17:29, on Zulip):

Hey all

Last update: Nov 18 2019 at 02:00UTC