Stream: t-compiler/wg-meta

Topic: meeting 2019.03.14


nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:10, on Zulip):

Hello @WG-compiler-meta! :wave: when you're around =)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:10, on Zulip):

I think we'll start a bit late today and probably do a shorter meeting

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

:wave:

Santiago Pastorino (Mar 14 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

sorry can’t attend for now

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

Hmm, we failed to make notes at the end of our last meeting I think.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

BTW, can I make a quick motion?

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

We did it as we went in the paper doc.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

I propose that we move from a single NOTES.md file to notes/date.md

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

ah, right

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

I’m fine with that.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

paper doc

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

I think we should probably still keep GH minutes, I'm finding it very nic to be able to refer and link to them

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

I'm already benefiting from our increased organization :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

but ok let's check in briefly on the action items

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

so it looks like everythign is checked off by and large

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

but for two items:

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

heh

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

well, I started some on the first point. I have the start of a proposal in this dropbox paper document.

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I have open PRs for all but one of my tasks (which was already merged).

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I wound up in a more ambitious place than I expected. We probably shouldn't discuss the details here -- we can make a separate topic -- but I'm feeling good about it.

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis One thing I'd say is that you might want to consider that if you promote too many folks from journeypeople (why do we have so many names for "shepherd"?) to full members you'll get gridlock wrt. rfcbot

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

Of course it's your team :slight_smile:

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

Didn’t get a chance to dig into other actionable things from the list though.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

@centril you will see that discussed on the paper, indeed

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

the problem with the proposal -- but I think also the strength -- is that I think it doesn't work as well in isolation. But I think that's maybe ok.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

Anyway as I said let's not get into the details though

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

I wanted to ask whether we should try adopting this sprint structure too :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

(in which case I would propose we do the "first sprint meeting" next week)

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

sprint structure for WGs or for this WG?

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

but I suppose we should just -- for this week at least -- try to pick a few logical follow-up tasks

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

sprint structure for WGs or for this WG?

this WG.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

I'm not ready yet to make proposals for all working groups.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

well let's see

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

one thing we have going on is organizing the github permissiosn

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

I created a doodle poll

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

so I can add that to the list and check it off ;)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

but that's a work item

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

I like the proposal. I think some of the names because I think they are misleading but otherwise I’m a fan. So long as the existing compiler team members are comfortable with the mentoring part of it.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

I like the proposal. I think some of the names because I think they are misleading but otherwise I’m a fan. So long as the existing compiler team members are comfortable with the mentoring part of it.

well that's the question isn't it :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

but I feel like if we're going to make this role, let's give it some real teeth

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

it does mean I think that we'll move people into it more slowly

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

but that's ok

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

probably good

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:23, on Zulip):

I agree.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

that said, you recall @davidtwco that when we were discussing the GH permissiosn, I raised the ide that a "regular participant" of a WG might be distinct from a journeyperson?

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

I didn't know it then, but it fits well here

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

i.e., "regular participant" might be someone who gets r+

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

and perhaps that is an early "rank"

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

i.e., I think it's fine if there is someone who never wants to commit the time

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

but does wnat to keep picking off bugs etc

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

we should make a spot for that

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

makes sense to me; a shepherd would be someone who also can write mentoring instructions and such?

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

I see. A journeyperson is, in this proposal, much more of a path to full membership than a distinct tier.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

Yes, that's the idea

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

But wait wait :) let's hold off because I have a question

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis did you reply to david or me?

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

for the GH perms meeting, we need to "Prepare a “rough draft” of what compiler team needs to be able to do" -- @davidtwco were you going to take a stab at that?

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

I guess that what I wrote in that comment is maybe even enough

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

I can.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis did you reply to david or me?

sorry, that was replying to @davidtwco -- I'm not quite sure where the term "shepherd" came from, I don't think I used it in the document.

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis journeyperson... whatever :P

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

Wasn’t that the language team equivalent of journeyperson?

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

yea

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:27, on Zulip):

That may be true but it's not quite the sense of the document.

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:27, on Zulip):

Yeah.

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:27, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis "that" = ?

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:27, on Zulip):

"a shepherd would be someone who also can write mentoring instructions and such?"

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:27, on Zulip):

ah

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

That is, I am proposing something rather more active

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

basically an internship

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

there would be an assigned mentor and an ambitious task

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

oh I see, that seems rather different

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

this is another reason to have another tier that is more like what you described

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

there would be an assigned mentor and an ambitious task

I think we could be more general than "ambitious task" as there may not always be something large enough?

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

because I think that mentors/tasks only come available every so often:)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

yeah, I don't know that it has to be an "ambitious task", but it should be a commitment to participating in a bigger way than "fixing a bug"

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

as there may not always be something large enough?

seems unlikely per current trends ;)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

in particular I want to get past coding roles

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

i.e. is it desirable that big enough tasks being available is a bottleneck, or should the bottleneck be people that you feel are "ready" for journeypersonship? Or perhaps even people available to mentor, but that's unavoidable.

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

I don't know. As @centril said, i'm not that worried. I anticipate mentors being the bottleneck more than tasks :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

but that will change as we go!

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

that's the other part of this, though, is we have to work out the responsibilities of a compiler team member

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

I think we probably want some form of member where you don't mentor folks, you just fix bugs and know a lot of stuff

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

and that's fine

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

so long as we all know the expectations :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

you don't mentor folks

in this structured way, I mean

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

anyway

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

I really like the proposal, but I agree that we need to flesh out what each "tier" of this means. From one-off contributor, regular w/ r+ but not journeyperson, journeyperson to full member.

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

Bigger refactorings etc. also certainly qualify as "big tasks"; not just implementing some big language feature or some such

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

Bigger refactorings etc. also certainly qualify as "big tasks"; not just implementing some big language feature or some such

oh definitely!

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

in fact, I think they are perhaps even better :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

so I will put "work on this proposal" again as a work item

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

and I'd be happy to collaborate of course

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

with feedback if nothing else

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

(I think there have already been a lot of great comments raised in this meeting, i'll haev to go back and look)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

what else is going on...

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

I saw @davidtwco you had an open PR

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

I think for establishing an order of "sync meetings"?

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

I've got two from last week's meeting tasks.

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

If possible, it would be nice if the WG-Meta could also help out some more with T-Lang WGs and stuff

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:33, on Zulip):

don't get me wrong, the templates and stuff are already great

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis the future-incompat stuff https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/future-incompat.20planning seems like a good thing for next week?

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

If possible, it would be nice if the WG-Meta could also help out some more with T-Lang WGs and stuff

yes I wanted to raise this

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

I've had some ideas for how to organize the lang team meetings and such

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

(which are also relevant to compiler working groups in some cases)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

and of course we have working groups like traits that straddle the lines

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

it feels like the meta is another such group

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:34, on Zulip):

( @nikomatsakis btw... we have the t-lang mtg in 26 min? DST is confusing...)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

correct

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

both parts are correct :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

I hope that works for you

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

I hate this part of the year

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

I guess given the preponderance of Europeans, maybe we should tie everything to Paris or something

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis oh sure; I just need to go and wash my face and other preparations :P

davidtwco (Mar 14 2019 at 18:35, on Zulip):

EU is doing away with DST, so just go with UTC. (I think I saw this confirmed recently)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:36, on Zulip):

Well, once that happens, I would consider it

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:36, on Zulip):

until then, we had this discussion once and I don't want to have it again :P

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:36, on Zulip):

@centril can I put you down for planning the future incompat meeting?

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:36, on Zulip):

this mostly means creating a doodle poll etc

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:36, on Zulip):

or finding a time for it

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:36, on Zulip):

whatever it takes :)

centril (Mar 14 2019 at 18:37, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis seems fine; I'll try to remember ^^

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:37, on Zulip):

EU is doing away with DST, so just go with UTC. (I think I saw this confirmed recently)

so actually locking to Athens would just handle this naturally, wouldn't it? :)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:38, on Zulip):

i.e., if the change is in 2021...

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:38, on Zulip):

...until then it would just be awkward for us US folk

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:38, on Zulip):

which is what we deserve for having changed the date that DST change happens anyway

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:38, on Zulip):

(although I guess maybe it saves energy...? or something)

nikomatsakis (Mar 14 2019 at 18:39, on Zulip):

anyway, ok, good meeting I guess? thanks all <3

Last update: Nov 18 2019 at 01:20UTC