Stream: t-compiler/wg-meta

Topic: meeting 2019.08.29


Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:00, on Zulip):

@T-compiler/WG-meta meeting?

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:01, on Zulip):

Yes!

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:01, on Zulip):

I was just coming to write that :)

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:01, on Zulip):

But I got distracted catching up on old threads

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:01, on Zulip):

:+1:

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:02, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis do you have something specific you want to talk about? or we should just go through issues and prs?

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:02, on Zulip):

Hmm. I'm somewhere in between.

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:03, on Zulip):

That is to say, we should prob go through PRs a bit -- but I also think the group needs to decide if we need a next focus

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:03, on Zulip):

there's no much on issues and prs I think

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:03, on Zulip):

Tomorrow is the scheduled planning meeting, as an aside

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:03, on Zulip):

I guess it may be better to focus on that discussion, I've merged a bunch of prs

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:03, on Zulip):

OK.

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:03, on Zulip):

Actually give me 2 minutes

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:04, on Zulip):

I have to finish one quick thing

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:04, on Zulip):

it would be probably a good idea if at some point you check issues and prs to see what's the current status

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:05, on Zulip):

but most of the things that were actionable by me and/or @davidtwco, are already done

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:06, on Zulip):

that's awesome

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:07, on Zulip):

So, in terms of this group

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:07, on Zulip):

right now we have compiler-team#87

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:07, on Zulip):

Yeah

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:07, on Zulip):

That needs some attention

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:07, on Zulip):

Came up recently in other contexts too

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:07, on Zulip):

I think I agree with David that we should just close the issue

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:07, on Zulip):

it's like a keep in mind

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

hey everyone, keep in mind to add yourselves to the map

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

yeah

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

maybe the thing to do is

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

look over the contributors and members list

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

and ensure that everyone is present

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

I don't think you should be able to be a contributor without at least some level of familiarity with something :)

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:08, on Zulip):

have we done that kind of cross-reference?

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

no

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

the main thing is ... I know there is a bunch of people missing in there

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

the question is ... once I know about somebody, what should we do?

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

we should open a PR and add them :)

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

I wouldn't add people without their consent

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

I can do it maybe

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

Oh, I would :)

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

I mean, I'd cc them on the PR...

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

:P

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:09, on Zulip):

ok

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:10, on Zulip):

the next step for expert map is probably more in infra's hands -- basically, integrating into r? system

davidtwco (Aug 29 2019 at 18:10, on Zulip):

That seems reasonable to me.

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:10, on Zulip):

yeah :+1: from my side too

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:10, on Zulip):

One area I think we could focus our efforts

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:10, on Zulip):

(talking a bit about the future)

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:11, on Zulip):

is on this idea of an "ICE-breaker" group, and maybe other maintenance related efforts

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:11, on Zulip):

the idea would be to try and pull together a set of steps and a proposal, maybe outline a few goals :)

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:12, on Zulip):

makes sense

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:13, on Zulip):

Maybe we can brainstorm a bit here?

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:13, on Zulip):

(If we don't have other issues to go through)

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:15, on Zulip):

This morning at the triage meeting I was thinking that one way forward would be:

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:15, on Zulip):

One example is LLVM-based regressions

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:15, on Zulip):

This is pretty similar to a working group, but without a "goal"

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:15, on Zulip):

There is no end state really

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:15, on Zulip):

I mean I guess inbox zero :)

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

But everybody knows that's fleeting...

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

yeah, from my point of view this makes sense

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:16, on Zulip):

so :+1:

davidtwco (Aug 29 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

Likewise.

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:17, on Zulip):

Now the problem is to find someone to volunteer to lead one :P

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:18, on Zulip):

I guess an interesting question is what other areas, but I think that's not for us to say here per se

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

Here's a question -- apart from creating a GH handle -- what can we do to drive attention to those sorts of bugs?

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

Now the problem is to find someone to volunteer to lead one :P

what kind of volunteer are you looking for?

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I was just wondering that. How much leadership is needed here exactly

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:19, on Zulip):

I think the main thing would be devoted mentoring time, or time devoted to fixing bugs

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

I mean, I could volunteer myself but we may need somebody more knowledgeable, unsure :)

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

yeah, well probably we need somebody more knowledgeable then :)

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:20, on Zulip):

The other thing I can imagine is basically promoting these "ICE-breaker" labels on the main web page, and then when people come and are interested in helping out, trying to direct them to one of those groups

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

well, @Santiago Pastorino, one thing that might be useful -- which isn't I think a lot of work -- would basically be trying to monitor the total number of "ICE-breaker" bugs, perhaps by category, and see if we are making progress

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

anyway I think maybe it doesn't really need a lead to start

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:21, on Zulip):

which is part of the beauty of it

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

hehe :+1:

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

maybe I'll make a quick meeting proposal, though I can't really imagine anyone being against this

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:22, on Zulip):

or maybe somebody else can :)

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

ah well I think the meta work then is going to be

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

what would qualify as an "ICE breaker" issue?

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:24, on Zulip):

Another good question.

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

I think (a) of course something in the area

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

so taking LLVM as an example, LLVM regressions and the like

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

I was going to say (b) something of medium priority

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

but I think that's probably wrong

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:25, on Zulip):

something has to distinguish this from "area" labels -- I think there should be a "self-containedness" to it

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

I guess that's the other thing, it's not so much the priority as the scope

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

these should not be hard bugs

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

but not necessarily easy

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:26, on Zulip):

but e.g. "lazy normalization", not a good fit.

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:27, on Zulip):

just kind of "random bugs" that are not related to someone's ongoing work or some bigger refactoring per se

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:27, on Zulip):

I think a lot of those bugs kind of accumulate and never get fixed

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:27, on Zulip):

does that make sense?

davidtwco (Aug 29 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

I think so.

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

also, unrelated, I'm going to assign compiler-team#82 to myself to write a summary (since I think that is what's required to close it)

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:28, on Zulip):

does that make sense?

to me so so ...

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

I mean, it makes sense, I'm trying to think sure what would be the scope and tasks of this working group

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

we want to just do triaging of things?

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

we want to tackle issues until they are fixed?

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

we want both things?

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

in the case of LLVM, I would say:

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:29, on Zulip):

we want to tackle issues until they are fixed?

fix

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

it's not about triaging per se

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

but the group would also do triaging?

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

no

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

or who is going to do triaging in general?

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

during triage meeting, if we encounter a bug that looks like (say) an LLVM bug

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

that is nominated

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

ahh ok ok, I was kind of convinced that the triaging process was an issue too

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

we could tag it for the ICE-breaker group and then un-nominate it

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:30, on Zulip):

but :+1:

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:31, on Zulip):

now yes, makes sense

nikomatsakis (Aug 29 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

Cool :) I have to run to next thing

Santiago Pastorino (Aug 29 2019 at 18:32, on Zulip):

:wave:

Last update: Nov 18 2019 at 01:05UTC