Stream: t-compiler

Topic: roadmap pre-discussion


nikomatsakis (Oct 03 2019 at 14:38, on Zulip):

That reminds me @pnkfelix -- I'm going to create this topic -- but looking over my calendar for the day, I don't have much time...maybe we (and whomever) want to do some pre-discussion and brainstorming tomorrow morning before the meeting itself (e.g., around 8:30am eastern or so)? Alternatively, I could probably chat a bit immediately after the compiler team mtg, but I know you usually have something to do then.

pnkfelix (Oct 03 2019 at 14:55, on Zulip):

yeah I'll have to go home after rustc meeting

pnkfelix (Oct 03 2019 at 14:56, on Zulip):

lets plan to chat tomorrow at 8:30eastern or so, as you said.

nikomatsakis (Oct 03 2019 at 14:58, on Zulip):

WFM

nikomatsakis (Oct 03 2019 at 14:58, on Zulip):

I'm going to add something to the calendar :)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:32, on Zulip):

ping @pnkfelix

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:33, on Zulip):

I don't know if we have much of an agenda

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:34, on Zulip):

or perhaps the goal of this pre-meeting is to make an agenda for the actual meeting

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:34, on Zulip):

the most immediate thoughts I've been having are:

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:34, on Zulip):
  1. There is on-going work that people are doing, or plan to do, but does not get enough visibility.
pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:35, on Zulip):

increased visibility is both better for the developer working on it (assuming that the idea is actually a good one, or at least a popular initiative), and better for the whole team ecosystem since people will be aware of what's coming

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:36, on Zulip):

its possible that I am just out of the loop here

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:36, on Zulip):

but the case of this that came up last night

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:36, on Zulip):

is I was talking to @eddyb and their plans for RVO came up

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:36, on Zulip):

and so I was hoping that one outcome of today's design meeting

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:37, on Zulip):

is that we could actually have a documented roadmap for RVO

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:37, on Zulip):

so that people know that work is planned

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:37, on Zulip):

(and do not e.g. attempt to recreate it unnecessarily, or attempt to revive old abandoned branches of eddyb's)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:37, on Zulip):

or perhaps the goal of this pre-meeting is to make an agenda for the actual meeting

yes

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:38, on Zulip):
  1. There is on-going work that people are doing, or plan to do, but does not get enough visibility.

right and this was a big part of the wg idea

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:38, on Zulip):

second immediate thought

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:38, on Zulip):

was that each non-trivial project was to be listed and checked in on

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:38, on Zulip):
  1. rust bootstrap still takes too long
nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:38, on Zulip):

I think we've... "sort of" done that :)

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:38, on Zulip):

do we have an RVO WG ?

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:38, on Zulip):

maybe that is what I am missing here

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:38, on Zulip):

no, there is #t-compiler/wg-mir-opt

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:38, on Zulip):

but I think we've not done so great at the check-ins and reports

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

because you are right, the WG system is meant to provide visiblity, and I think it does

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

and perhaps the granularity of wgs is too large

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

I think it does, yes

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

so the real question is how to identify good candidates for "next WG's"

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

much more than we had

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

Maybe wg-mir-opt is too broad.

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

another example would be the backend

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

on this topic

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

I think wg is a bad name

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

well

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

I think it should be "project", as the embeddd group is doing

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:39, on Zulip):

well, it makes a difference

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:40, on Zulip):

in terms of the "mentality" of what deserves a "wg"

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:40, on Zulip):

I think having WG's is good, but having projects would be good too

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:40, on Zulip):

but I also this think is maybe a bit afield from a roadmap discussion

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:40, on Zulip):

As in, each WG selects the projects its doing

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:40, on Zulip):

I don't know whether the checkin process would then switch to Project-checkin

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:40, on Zulip):

or stick with WG-checkin

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:40, on Zulip):

maybe

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:40, on Zulip):

this feels more apropos to the "wg retrospective"

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:41, on Zulip):

true

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:41, on Zulip):

what I had thought for this meeting is that we might

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:41, on Zulip):

/me tries to remember

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:41, on Zulip):

maybe we could brainstorm

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:42, on Zulip):

well I guss basically revisit the things from last year, brainstorm what we think might also want to be on there, and also think about what interactions with other teams might be important?

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:42, on Zulip):

all the things we might talk about at today's meeting

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:42, on Zulip):

yes, that

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:42, on Zulip):

let me create a hackmd

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:42, on Zulip):

okay great

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:42, on Zulip):

https://hackmd.io/JNRvANhJSwm6Zggq7CY0Vw

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:46, on Zulip):

I suppose we may want to put a bound on how much time we spend writing stuff at random

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:47, on Zulip):

lol

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:47, on Zulip):

I think we're approaching a steady state

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:47, on Zulip):

I was just going to look over the roadmap from 2019

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:47, on Zulip):

okay

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:48, on Zulip):

2019 roadmap "themes" feel pretty apropos still :)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:48, on Zulip):

(which seems ok)

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:48, on Zulip):

core strength: compilation times have gotten better, I think, but maybe not as much as we had hoped they would ?

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:49, on Zulip):

yeah

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:49, on Zulip):

I would say that feels true for most everything on that list :P but that's because we're ambitious

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:50, on Zulip):

IDE integration, I don't know for sure, but my guess is that the most interesting progress has been with rust-analyzer.. Is that a fair remark?

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:50, on Zulip):

what I remember feeling really powerful to me from last year when thinking about roadmap was just trying to be clear on what we view as the biggest challenges or problems

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:50, on Zulip):

re: IDE, I'm not sure. Certainly rust-analyzer has been doing a lot and made a lot of great progress. It seems like RLS has been progressing too, but I don't have a good view into what an 'end user' might perceive there

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:50, on Zulip):

I get the impression that the final two bullets of the 2019 roadmap are the places where we were most successful

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:51, on Zulip):

that is my impression

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:51, on Zulip):

i.e. rustc-guide seems to have gotten a lot of attention and has also been a good resource for onboarding, yes?

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:51, on Zulip):

I think it's like 60-75% of what I hope it will someday be :)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:51, on Zulip):

which is pretty good

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:51, on Zulip):

by this I mean -- I think it is genuinely useful and getting some great work

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:52, on Zulip):

but I still feel like we're not using it as much as we could?

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:52, on Zulip):

mostly I mean that I think it'd be great to have more high-level docs of big components of the compiler than (I think) we do

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:52, on Zulip):

and to try and do some of that doc "as we build"

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:52, on Zulip):

but I might be wrong about that

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:52, on Zulip):

maybe that's not even a good goal

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:53, on Zulip):

in any case I do think overall rustc-guide is doing quite well

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:53, on Zulip):

I'm trying to thikn what we can productively talk abut at this meeting

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:53, on Zulip):

Well, we can either:

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:54, on Zulip):

maybe we can brainstorm a bit possible "focus topics" for the meeting :)

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:54, on Zulip):
  1. try to narrow down the list of topics to a smaller set that we would want to talk about at design meeting
pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:54, on Zulip):
  1. try to elaborate on what items on existing list mean, but not actually cross anything off list
nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:54, on Zulip):

ps I started writing out "big challenges" at the bottom

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:54, on Zulip):

oh this reminds me of something I do want on the list

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:55, on Zulip):

I'd be curious to see if your list is different from mine

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:56, on Zulip):

I'm also curious: do you feel like we're doing poorly on maintenance and triage? I am sometimes of two minds

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:56, on Zulip):

like, we have a lot of P-high bugs

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:56, on Zulip):

and it's a lot of work that often falls disproportionately on you

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:56, on Zulip):

I guess I think we're not doing amazing, but it's not like we're totally dropping the ball either

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:57, on Zulip):

I think we don't know how to distribute work, yeah

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:57, on Zulip):

I believe we still have a large set of excited volunteers

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:57, on Zulip):

I think a good use for this meeting

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:57, on Zulip):

seeing as it's the first meeting, possibly, of multiple

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:57, on Zulip):

would be to agree on the big challenges

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:57, on Zulip):

and try to detail them out a bit more

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:58, on Zulip):

because I think the work items we take on should be addressing those challenges

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:58, on Zulip):

sounds good

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:58, on Zulip):

maybe a way to proceed then would be to put up a list of challenges

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:58, on Zulip):

let people add their own

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:58, on Zulip):

we could do the "vote" thing

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:58, on Zulip):

(remember that time we had a spreadsheet?)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:58, on Zulip):

and then kind of pick the most popular to talk about in detail?

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:59, on Zulip):

that sounds good to me

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 12:59, on Zulip):

since people may think of other challenges that we have no identified here

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:59, on Zulip):

I'm sure

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:59, on Zulip):

should I try the "Create a spreadsheet" thing?

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:59, on Zulip):

what's the best way to handle the voting I wonder

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:59, on Zulip):

spreadsheet didn't feel amazing

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 12:59, on Zulip):

this seems like htere must be a webpage that does JUST THIS

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:00, on Zulip):

twitter

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:00, on Zulip):

or emoji votes? (embedded in zulip, that is)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:00, on Zulip):

emoji votes are ok but they get intermingled

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:00, on Zulip):

yeah that's not good

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:01, on Zulip):

lets take a sec and see if there's any free site to handle this in a good way ...?

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:02, on Zulip):

there's a bunch

eddyb (Oct 04 2019 at 13:02, on Zulip):

emoji votes are ok but they get intermingled

in:clap:band:clap:sig:clap:na:clap:lling

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:02, on Zulip):

sarcasm?

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:02, on Zulip):

I...have no idea what that means

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:02, on Zulip):

lets take a sec and see if there's any free site to handle this in a good way ...?

I just did some searching and was overwhelmed

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:02, on Zulip):

I'm thinking a hackmd doc

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:02, on Zulip):

and people can put a . or something on the one they like :P

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:02, on Zulip):

and add more

eddyb (Oct 04 2019 at 13:02, on Zulip):

I am too slow and don't know how to use Zulip replies

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:03, on Zulip):

or we use a special zulip topic that is ONLY for listing the options

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:03, on Zulip):

and emojis

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:03, on Zulip):

that'd be kind of fun :)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:03, on Zulip):

anyway

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:03, on Zulip):

https://softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/questions/13467/online-poll-that-lets-users-add-new-options

lqd (Oct 04 2019 at 13:04, on Zulip):

there are things like https://www.strawpoll.me/ (hum maybe doesn't allow people to add options :thinking: )

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:04, on Zulip):

https://softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/questions/13467/online-poll-that-lets-users-add-new-options

haha that is EXACTLY the right question

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:07, on Zulip):

https://trello.com/b/hL2J58r9/rustc-2020-challenges

lqd (Oct 04 2019 at 13:07, on Zulip):

(or https://poll.ly where people can add suggestions and vote on existing ones)

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:07, on Zulip):

https://trello.com/b/hL2J58r9/rustc-2020-challenges

(wait, haven't yet determined if this lets you vote ...)

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:08, on Zulip):

oh and it may require login's. No good

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:08, on Zulip):

okay maybe we'll just have to use hackmd as niko suggested.

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:09, on Zulip):

Ah I have to buy "Business Class" to enable voting

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:09, on Zulip):

(genius business model...)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:09, on Zulip):

I wonder if doodle or something can help with this

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:09, on Zulip):

er sorry

lqd (Oct 04 2019 at 13:09, on Zulip):

(example: https://poll.ly/#/G6AZzXVR)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:10, on Zulip):

yes I think poll.ly is perfect

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:10, on Zulip):

Ah I have to buy "Business Class" to enable voting

Oh no, I was able to get that one power up without paying

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:10, on Zulip):

I was trying to paste my own URL :)

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:10, on Zulip):

check out poll.ly, @pnkfelix, I think it does exactly what we want

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:10, on Zulip):

will look now

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:10, on Zulip):

(example: https://poll.ly/#/G6AZzXVR)

this url

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:11, on Zulip):

looks good, yes

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:11, on Zulip):

okay problem solved

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:11, on Zulip):

so we'll end this meeting and get other work done for next 50min then?

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:12, on Zulip):

http://www.rkursem.com/poll/ is also unterrible

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:12, on Zulip):

yep, sounds good

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:12, on Zulip):

i'll create a poll.ly

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:12, on Zulip):

with what we have from the doc so far

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:21, on Zulip):

OK, updated the hackmd and created a poll

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:21, on Zulip):

I"m going to send it out now so people can start to "seed it"

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 13:21, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis is "lack of lazy normalization" essentially a sub-bullet of "tech debt around the trait system"?

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 13:21, on Zulip):

in my view yes

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 14:01, on Zulip):

@pnkfelix I wonder if wg/project as a hierarchy is the wrong way to think about it

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 14:02, on Zulip):

I'm looking at e.g. @anp "starting up" work on RFC 2091 -- I'd love to be "tracking" this as a project -- but it feels overkill to have a WG

nikomatsakis (Oct 04 2019 at 14:02, on Zulip):

Separately, I thnk it makes sense to have e.g. a wg for "triage" or for long-running things (similarly, wg-llvm, arguably wg-traits)

pnkfelix (Oct 04 2019 at 14:04, on Zulip):

yeah I think this makes sense

Last update: Nov 16 2019 at 02:30UTC