Stream: t-compiler

Topic: planning meeting 2019.10.25


nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:51, on Zulip):

Hey @T-compiler/meeting -- planning meeting in 10 minutes =)

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:52, on Zulip):

omg

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:52, on Zulip):

I may have completely messed up my own schedule

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 13:52, on Zulip):

oh do you have a conflict?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:54, on Zulip):

Maybe

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:54, on Zulip):

I was supposed to have a call at 9am

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:54, on Zulip):

but it looks like it got moved

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:54, on Zulip):

it's a big mess, let me sort if out :)

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 13:54, on Zulip):

why are there two Zulip threads?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:54, on Zulip):

er, sorry, I missed the other one

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 13:56, on Zulip):

I wonder if we can merge them... Done!

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:57, on Zulip):

ok so I have this last minute call and might be a bit late

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:57, on Zulip):

I wanted to propose a meeting but looks like I won't hvae time

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:57, on Zulip):

not sure how long this call will last

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 13:58, on Zulip):

sorry :/ :/

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 13:59, on Zulip):

I will plan to go ahead and schedule the next three design meetings nonetheless

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:01, on Zulip):

okay then, hi again to @T-compiler/meeting

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:02, on Zulip):

lets first have five minutes for any announcements

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:06, on Zulip):

okay its looking like we don't have any today

Santiago Pastorino (Oct 25 2019 at 14:06, on Zulip):

just one little thing

Santiago Pastorino (Oct 25 2019 at 14:07, on Zulip):

we created a t-compiler/help-wanted stream

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:07, on Zulip):

great

Santiago Pastorino (Oct 25 2019 at 14:07, on Zulip):

if someone have tasks to hand to new contributors that would be a good place to do so :)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:07, on Zulip):

it will be interesting to see how that works

Santiago Pastorino (Oct 25 2019 at 14:07, on Zulip):

yep, an experiment :)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:08, on Zulip):

hopefully we can get more people onboarded that way

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:08, on Zulip):

So, as for steering this month: there are 8 open unscheduled meeting proposals

Santiago Pastorino (Oct 25 2019 at 14:08, on Zulip):

got a lot of interest out of a tweet I sent, like 15 replies of people joining

nagisa (Oct 25 2019 at 14:10, on Zulip):

I think https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177 was decided and merged behind a flag?

nagisa (Oct 25 2019 at 14:10, on Zulip):

/me double-checks

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:11, on Zulip):

Technical

Non-technical (I think)

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:11, on Zulip):

when are we moving that out of the -Z flag?

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:13, on Zulip):

I suppose that might end up being what the meeting is about? How we decide 1. how to measure the impact, and 2. whether to takes steps to mitigate the impact before moving the change out of the -Z flag ?

nagisa (Oct 25 2019 at 14:13, on Zulip):

yeah 177 is merged.

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:13, on Zulip):

didn't we discuss "constitutional convention"? (also... that's a very American title...)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:14, on Zulip):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_convention_(political_meeting)

nagisa (Oct 25 2019 at 14:14, on Zulip):

@centril as soon as people run benchmarks and stuff.

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:14, on Zulip):

Its French too

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:14, on Zulip):

just opened

but I'm still on a call :). The idea here would be to try and formalize a bit more the steps for making major changes. This is something @mw and I have discussed on and off.

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:15, on Zulip):

(ok, that's probably all I can do until this call ends)

Wesley Wiser (Oct 25 2019 at 14:15, on Zulip):

(Working link https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/209)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:16, on Zulip):

didn't we discuss "constitutional convention"?

(I don't recall having a discussion, but its possible I was absent.)

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:17, on Zulip):

well a co-lead was elected

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:17, on Zulip):

the constitutional convention proposal might heavily overlap with the maintenance/triage proposal, though.

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:18, on Zulip):

okay, well, lets at least figure out how this meeting should be run

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:18, on Zulip):

@nagisa I think we need to set a deadline beyond which this is merged (benchmarks or not).

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:18, on Zulip):

I do like the implied first step we're taking so far: Trying to cull the list of topics via trivial metrics (like "we already did that")

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:20, on Zulip):

also, it turns out that compiler-team#161 was actually a non-technical proposal

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:21, on Zulip):

(We're 20 minutes in btw; and 40 minutes left?)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:22, on Zulip):

The typical cadence we are seeking is to have a planning meeting (this), then two technical meetings, then the non-technical meeting

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:22, on Zulip):

there are actually four technical proposals on the table

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:22, on Zulip):

compiler-team#202, compiler-team#199, compiler-team#177, compiler-team#175

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:23, on Zulip):

so here's my suggestion: try to spend the next 15 minutes choosing which two of the above we want to dedicate two technical slots to

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:24, on Zulip):

I'll try to take notes over here: https://hackmd.io/o9vSvOBXTPeDlLXFzdu_5Q

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:24, on Zulip):

so that I stop scrolling up to the summary comment that I wrote and editting it in place, which is no good for any one

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:25, on Zulip):

Does anyone here have any instinct about whether we'd get the benchmark data we want regarding llvm.sideeffect in the next two weeks?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:25, on Zulip):

(still only vaguely following, but I suggest we follow-up on the preous Zoxc meeting, as we discussed, for one of those)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:25, on Zulip):

@nagisa ^ ?

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:26, on Zulip):

My current instinct is that we are not likely to acquire the actionable data in the next two weeks, unless someone with a fire under their butt is currently working to gather it

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:26, on Zulip):

and therefore I'm inclined to just remove compiler-team#177 from consideration for today's planning meeting

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:27, on Zulip):

(still only vaguely following, but I suggest we follow-up on the preous Zoxc meeting, as we discussed, for one of those)

compiler-team#175 is a Zoxc PR, but I don't think I'd call it "follow-up on te the previous Zoxc meeting" ...

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:27, on Zulip):

oh wait, compiler-team#199 "incremental dep-graph storage" is the follow-up to the previous Zoxc meeting, right?

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:28, on Zulip):

yes, yes it is I think

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:28, on Zulip):

I do think that's a pretty important area for us to attack

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:28, on Zulip):

(confirm)

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:29, on Zulip):

and therefore I'm inclined to just remove compiler-team#177 from consideration for today's planning meeting

Well if we remove it from the planning schedules, I think the compiler team should at least devote efforts to gathering the data

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:29, on Zulip):

okay. I suspect compiler-team#199 is more important than compiler-team#175.

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:29, on Zulip):

Well if we remove it from the planning schedules, I think the compiler team should at least devote efforts to gathering the data

(i wasn't saying we'd remove it from the proposals lists forever. just that it doesn't seem like we'd be able to take action this month.)

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:31, on Zulip):

@pnkfelix I assumed so, but I think there needs to be some effort to get it back on the proposals list maybe next month or the one after that...

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:31, on Zulip):

Under the assumption that compiler-team#199 >>> compiler-team#175, and under a further assumption that we probably should invite diversity in terms of the subjects of each meeting (i.e., don't have a pair of meetings back-to-back that focus on the works of a single contributor) ...

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:32, on Zulip):

pnkfelix I assumed so, but I think there needs to be some effort to get it back on the proposals list maybe next month or the one after that...

I think the reasonable thing here is to try to figure out who is going to do the data-gathering work, and when.

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:32, on Zulip):

but determining that need not take up a design meeting slot.

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:33, on Zulip):

(I believe @mw had mentioned that they could gather data on FF..?)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:33, on Zulip):

Under the assumption that compiler-team#199 >>> compiler-team#175, and under a further assumption that we probably should invite diversity in terms of the subjects of each meeting (i.e., don't have a pair of meetings back-to-back that focus on the works of a single contributor) ...

... sorry, got side-tracked. All I was going to say was: It seems like the obvious thing to do here is to use one slot for compiler-team#199 and another slot for the fourth remaining proposal, compiler-team#202

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:35, on Zulip):

(I believe mw had mentioned that they could gather data on FF..?)

okay yes I found the record of that

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:36, on Zulip):

anyway, what do people think of that pair of proposed topics: one slot gets compiler-team#199, and another gets compiler-team#202 ? We still need to figure out which dates are best for each

nagisa (Oct 25 2019 at 14:36, on Zulip):

Those seem like good topics to discuss, yeah.

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:37, on Zulip):

(ok, my call is done, sorry)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:37, on Zulip):

Okay then this is what's on the table currently:

Technical

Non-technical (I think)

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:38, on Zulip):

lets first have five minutes for any announcements

what if I just remembered something?

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:38, on Zulip):

Unblocking Zoxc seems like a good idea

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:38, on Zulip):

@eddyb usually I like to allow people to make announcements at the end?

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:39, on Zulip):

@eddyb do you have an announcement that would change the course of this river meeting ?

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:39, on Zulip):

so one thing is that @mw prompted me to write this up as an issue but I don't think he added it anywhere to be discussed https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/65407

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:39, on Zulip):

we can go back to this after everything else, that's fine

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:39, on Zulip):

just bad planning on my part

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:39, on Zulip):

okay

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:40, on Zulip):

well

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:40, on Zulip):

(that does seem like an imp't topic to discuss, and well suited to a design meeting)

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:40, on Zulip):

but I guess hmm

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:40, on Zulip):

would we be better off doing #65407 instead of the dataflow analysis meeting (compiler-team#202) ?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:40, on Zulip):

it is actually in some sense narrow in scope too

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:41, on Zulip):

doubtful, assuming we're talking about @ecstatic-morse's dataflow (which is more important than metadata stuff)

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:41, on Zulip):

yes, we are

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:41, on Zulip):

okay then

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:41, on Zulip):

I was going to say @eddyb that we could also try to arrange a "one-off" meeting time with key folks to dig more into that too, I dont' think design meetings have to be the only time to have discussions, just a minimum amount of time :)

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:41, on Zulip):

finally unblocking control-flow in CTFE - it's nothing short of a miracle :P

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:42, on Zulip):

So, maybe we can spend five minutes choosing which non-technical topic we will do in the next three weeks

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:42, on Zulip):

and then after we've picked that, we can figure out the scheduling of all three?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:43, on Zulip):

wfm

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:43, on Zulip):

my personal inclination is that we either do the Working Group review (compiler-team#187) or the major changes proposal (compiler-team#209)

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:43, on Zulip):

me as well; in fact, I may just close compiler-team#161

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:44, on Zulip):

you don't think compiler-team#161 is likely to bear fruit?

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:44, on Zulip):

or its just not worth spending a friday meeting on?

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:44, on Zulip):

I like compiler-team#161, but I'm biased because I recently got the chance to get into something like this for a potential client

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:45, on Zulip):

(part of my motivation here @eddyb is that I think this may be seomthing that is not really a job for compiler team -- the extent of our role might be to help "connect" clients to people like yourself or others)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:45, on Zulip):

I think both compiler-team#187 and compiler-team#209 have potential to let us identify problems in our development processes and maybe help smooth out those processes

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:45, on Zulip):

improving -Zself-profile further would go a long way and maybe that's something that we can discuss in that area

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:46, on Zulip):

which is why I think they are high on my priority list of non-technical topic areas

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:46, on Zulip):

Yes, me too.

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:46, on Zulip):

I lean mildly towards the "retrospective"

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:46, on Zulip):

in that I think it'd be good for us to reflect on the many changes we made

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:46, on Zulip):

and in general it's good for us to reflect more often :)

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:46, on Zulip):

that seems like it would, in turn, potentially inform compiler-team#209

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:46, on Zulip):

right. and that reflection might in turn inform the major changes proposal

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:47, on Zulip):

boom, great minds think alike (and so do we)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:48, on Zulip):

okay then, that's five minutes spent but I think we identified compiler-team#187 as our non-technical topic

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:49, on Zulip):

Lets talk scheduling then.

Topics are:

Dates are:

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:50, on Zulip):

How do people look in terms of conflicts?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:50, on Zulip):

I think I am available all of those dates

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:50, on Zulip):

is @ecstatic-morse around? and @Zoxc ? to report on which of the above dates they are available?

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:51, on Zulip):

and how about @mw ? (I think they told us they couldn't be here today, so I guess I won't know.)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:52, on Zulip):

(in hindsight I should ask people with relevant proposals to supply their availability for the coming weeks well before the planning meeting, I guess.)

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:52, on Zulip):

oh man

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:52, on Zulip):

yes that would be smart

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:52, on Zulip):

we should make an entry on the compiler team calendar to help us remember to do this :)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:53, on Zulip):

Well in any case, I'm currently inclined to just go right down the list for now, i.e. put compiler-team#202 on november 1st, etc.

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:53, on Zulip):

also, create some docs in forge like "how to run a X meeting"

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:53, on Zulip):

yeah let's do that

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:53, on Zulip):

okay great. I think that's everything then

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:53, on Zulip):

any closing announcements?

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:53, on Zulip):

:)

davidtwco (Oct 25 2019 at 14:53, on Zulip):

RFC 2008 #[non_exhaustive] was just stabilized (#64639 landed)! The initial implementation of that was my first rustc PR (just 10 days short of 2 years ago), so thanks to @nikomatsakis, @Vadim Petrochenkov, @oli, @Ariel Ben-Yehuda, @eddyb, @centril and everyone else who helped with that.

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:54, on Zulip):

I will say: if you want new twitter followers, a great trick is to get Niko to tweet that you are the new co-lead for T-compiler

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:54, on Zulip):

drat, you're making me regret quitting twitter

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:54, on Zulip):

do not regret that

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:55, on Zulip):

also I think it's amusing that this is :wedding :wedding:

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:55, on Zulip):

oh I did have a broad question

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:55, on Zulip):

well, I guess there are hearts

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 14:55, on Zulip):

(sorry, was just browsing emoji, looking for new favorites)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:55, on Zulip):

perhaps aimed at @centril but maybe T-release in general

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:55, on Zulip):

@centril do you typically run the whole test suite? I know you were blocked on that debuginfo test

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:56, on Zulip):

but the other ones all typically work for you? What is your development platform?

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:56, on Zulip):

@pnkfelix let's see, 1sec

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:56, on Zulip):

I ask because I usually don't run e.g. the codegen tests, and today I tried it (and the codegen-units tests, the run-make-fulldeps, etc) for the first time in a while, and got some unhappy failures on my mac

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:56, on Zulip):

Description: Ubuntu 19.04
Linux centrilnas2 5.0.0-25-generic #26-Ubuntu SMP Thu Aug 1 12:04:58 UTC 2019 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 14:56, on Zulip):

I have one test I automatically remove on every build after checkout on the server (src/test/debuginfo/issue-22656.rs) to avoid failures

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:57, on Zulip):

@pnkfelix if I'm doing rollups or infra-related work I will typically ./x.py clean && ./x.py test

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 14:58, on Zulip):

okay so I'll take that as a yes, they all tend to pass (apart from the debuginfo ones that we are going to be // ignoreing soon if we haven't already.)

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 14:58, on Zulip):

(but ./x.py check and ./x.py -i test src/test/ui --stage 1 --pass check --bless otherwise)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 15:00, on Zulip):

okay then, that's an hour!

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 15:00, on Zulip):

thanks to everyone in @T-compiler/meeting for attending!

centril (Oct 25 2019 at 15:00, on Zulip):

thanks! :wave:

eddyb (Oct 25 2019 at 15:02, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis btw if you think https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/65407 should be discussed at some point, would be good to point me to what I need to do on top of having that issue description

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 15:17, on Zulip):

PS, @pnkfelix, I'm going to do the 'follow up' to this meeting

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 15:18, on Zulip):

and I'm goign to open a quick doc explaining what it is :)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 15:18, on Zulip):

to the planning meeting?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 15:18, on Zulip):

Lets talk scheduling then.

Topics are:

Dates are:

these were our end results

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 15:18, on Zulip):

to the planning meeting?

yes, i.e., I always make some announcements, update the compiler team calendar, etc

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 15:18, on Zulip):

I see, okay

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 15:18, on Zulip):

I probably should figure out how to help with that

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 15:18, on Zulip):

do I have permissions to edit the calendar?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 15:18, on Zulip):

that's why I will write it down

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2019 at 15:19, on Zulip):

don't know :)

pnkfelix (Oct 25 2019 at 15:19, on Zulip):

okay we'll find out

mw (Oct 28 2019 at 08:57, on Zulip):

The current date (Nov 1) for the dep-graph meeting works for me

Last update: Nov 21 2019 at 14:00UTC