Stream: t-compiler

Topic: contributor survey


nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:10, on Zulip):

Hey @mark-i-m ... step one would be to create a hackmd or something and brainstorm a bit the questions you want to ask (or maybe information you want to gather)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:11, on Zulip):

we can work together on this @mark-i-m (well, in case you plan to work on this :slight_smile: )

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:12, on Zulip):

Thanks, that would be great!

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:12, on Zulip):

Let me make a hackmd

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:12, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis I think my main doubt would be how are we going to spread the word about this?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:13, on Zulip):

I guess: zulip topic, twitter, URLO, IRLO ?

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:13, on Zulip):

https://hackmd.io/@ux-jKBcgRTSHsH042VF3BA/By-u-V39U/edit

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:13, on Zulip):

Yep, I had the same question

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:14, on Zulip):

gonna write something quick and dirty there

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:14, on Zulip):

Also, to be clear, we are targetting developers who are new or left, right? So should we actively discourage responses by current devs?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:14, on Zulip):

probably badly written but as a way to start

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:16, on Zulip):

wrote some stuff there

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:16, on Zulip):

let's start by getting it written

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:16, on Zulip):

@mark-i-m feel free to remove things but for sure please write them in english :P

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:17, on Zulip):

I think it should be fairly short

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:17, on Zulip):

I wrote that in pseudo english

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:17, on Zulip):

a few questions, 2 or 3 probably

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:17, on Zulip):

the next step would be a google form

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:17, on Zulip):

for broadcasting, I would probalby post it

something like that?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:17, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis check the hackmd, I wrote like 5 questions, maybe we can condense them in some way

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:18, on Zulip):

ah sorry ;)

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:18, on Zulip):

Should we make some of them a multiple choice? to make people think a bit more deeply about what they disliked

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:18, on Zulip):

?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:18, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

ah sorry ;)

oh no worries :heart:

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:18, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

Should we make some of them a multiple choice? to make people think a bit more deeply about what they disliked

probably :)

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:19, on Zulip):

yeah those questions seem great

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:19, on Zulip):

I wuold probably make opton 4 and 5 multiple choice

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:19, on Zulip):

I guess we want to know if they've tried to contribute, when and what, and if it was great or not and why

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:19, on Zulip):

I think the first question is smart, because we'll prob get a bunch of random folks who never did nothing :)

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:19, on Zulip):

might be good to ask instead

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:19, on Zulip):

how long have you been contributing

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:20, on Zulip):

with a few choices

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:20, on Zulip):

something like that

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:20, on Zulip):

yeah, we need to clearly know what they've tried to do and for how long

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:20, on Zulip):

mind if I edit?

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:20, on Zulip):

Please go ahead

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:20, on Zulip):

sure, please go ahead

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:21, on Zulip):

burn what I've done because it's a bit bad :), I've tried to be the ICE-Breaker :)

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

not sure about

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

I might just cut that

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

it seems like the next question ("what were major pain points") is more important

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

and perhaps the same thing anyway

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

:+1:

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

* working on my first PR (or started a PR but never finished)

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

we could ask "Are you still contributing to rust" as a yes/no question I guess

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

which might be interesting

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

Santiago Pastorino said:

* working on my first PR (or started a PR but never finished)

about this, may be good to split into two

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:22, on Zulip):

or hmmm

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:23, on Zulip):

so I fear that people try to contribute in some way but are unable

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:23, on Zulip):

so that case doesn't fit never

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:23, on Zulip):

How about "never, but I want to"

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:23, on Zulip):

but unsure if it's exactly this one or we can be more explicit

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:23, on Zulip):
Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:24, on Zulip):

let me explain what I'm thinking ... so ... I think an important aspect to identify is people that wanted to contribute and tried in some way to do so but were not able for X reason

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:24, on Zulip):

maybe we shouldn't even talk about PR

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:24, on Zulip):

Are you still contributing to Rust?

What's the difference between "yes" and "Sometimes"

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:24, on Zulip):

?

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:24, on Zulip):

depending how advanced we want to go

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:24, on Zulip):

we could branch a bit

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:24, on Zulip):

i.e., ask somewhat diferent questions for folks who never contributed

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:25, on Zulip):

e.g., "if not, why not?" or something like that

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:25, on Zulip):

what I was suggesting is maybe change working on my first PR (or started a PR but never finished) to have tried to contribute but was not able or something like that

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:26, on Zulip):

you could be Niko Matsakis and started your first PR and never finish because you've stopped caring or don't have time :)

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:26, on Zulip):

hmm

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:26, on Zulip):

I tried phrasing that

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:27, on Zulip):

there's a few different things it might mean, depending on how you phrase it

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:27, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

depending how advanced we want to go

I think it would be good to tease out what difference we can. I especially think that people who tried to contribute and never finished will be many

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:27, on Zulip):

yeah

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:27, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

there's a few different things it might mean, depending on how you phrase it

yeah what I've said is still not good for what I want to identify

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:27, on Zulip):

take a look

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:28, on Zulip):

let me see

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:28, on Zulip):

hmm, so, let me explain but I may be wrong :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:28, on Zulip):

I think it's important to identify people that tried but were not able because they lack knowledge, guidance, etc

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:28, on Zulip):

so I think identifying those 100% clear is important

nagisa (May 15 2020 at 15:28, on Zulip):

Did survey overview meeting happened yet? Can’t find the stream

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:29, on Zulip):

yes

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:29, on Zulip):

@nagisa https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/238009-t-compiler.2Fmeetings

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:29, on Zulip):

Santiago Pastorino said:

so I think identifying those 100% clear is important

to me those cases are going to answer I started a PR but I never finished it, or it never landed

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:29, on Zulip):

note the new stream

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:29, on Zulip):

but also an extremely experienced compiler hacker could answer that

nagisa (May 15 2020 at 15:30, on Zulip):

welp, that was a bad time to start using a new stream for the topic :frown:

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:31, on Zulip):

I believe they started using it yesterday (or tried)...

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:31, on Zulip):

Santiago Pastorino said:

but also an extremely experienced compiler hacker could answer that, because they don't have time or willing to continue

I guess something like tried to contribute but wasn't able because of lack of knowledge/guidance

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:31, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis :point_up:

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:32, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino ok -- though I wonder if folks might've been turned away for other reasons they might not check it

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:32, on Zulip):

e.g., maybe because build times

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:32, on Zulip):

or because somebody was a jerk to them

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:32, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino Perhaps we can focus the first question more on frequency and let the last question answer why?

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:32, on Zulip):

right

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:32, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

or because somebody was a jerk to them

exactly

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:33, on Zulip):

"tried to contribute but never finished" seems good

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:33, on Zulip):

I think it's better to provide more options that consider all that stuff

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:33, on Zulip):

Also "occasional prs" feels like > 1

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:33, on Zulip):

agreed with you guys

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:33, on Zulip):

we could also change it to

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

a tree

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

and have something like

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

"have you ever contributed?

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

if they say "Yes" then we ask "how often"

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

1 PR, a few PRs, many PRs

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

:+1:

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

that's better

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

similarly we can ask "are you still contributing"

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

(only if they say Yes)

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

:+1:

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

(and if they say No, we can ask more about why)

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:35, on Zulip):

this is getting fancy :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:35, on Zulip):

lol

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:35, on Zulip):

side note that

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:35, on Zulip):

we should move this survey and the one that @pnkfelix made into some "group folder"

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:35, on Zulip):

so we can redo them regularly

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:36, on Zulip):

ps, do we want to clarify "have you ever contributed code" or something?

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:36, on Zulip):

not sure how to phrase it, but I feel like we are not taking about organizing meetups here

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:36, on Zulip):

even though I consider that contributing :)

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:36, on Zulip):

we could just say "ever landed a PR against a rust-lang repository"

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:36, on Zulip):

or someting very concrete

pnkfelix (May 15 2020 at 15:38, on Zulip):

we also need to be better up front about deciding (and stating) how survey results will be shared

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:38, on Zulip):

I think in this case we will share summary data but not the individual responses

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:39, on Zulip):

yeah maybe we should define better what do we want to know

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:39, on Zulip):

and we would quote free text responses unless they seem personal or people ask us not to

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:39, on Zulip):

(we could include a specific question about "can we quote?" with a default of yes)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:40, on Zulip):

Santiago Pastorino said:

yeah maybe we should define better what do we want to know

there's a lot of ways of contributing but what are we trying to review

pnkfelix (May 15 2020 at 15:40, on Zulip):

nagisa said:

welp, that was a bad time to start using a new stream for the topic :(

(sorry about that, @nagisa . I should have posted a forwarding-pointer in #t-compiler )

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:40, on Zulip):

also I could add some formatting to docs and a period or run ispell on docs and that would be contributing to rust-lang/rust

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:41, on Zulip):

but I think this time we are talking about code to the compiler or stdlib, right?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:41, on Zulip):

if so maybe we should clearly say, have you contributed with code to rustc or rust stdlib?

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:41, on Zulip):

I am debating about whether e.g. contributing to chalk counts

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:41, on Zulip):

I thnk we should include it

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:41, on Zulip):

yes

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:41, on Zulip):

but we should ask about it in the "what did you contribute to"

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:42, on Zulip):

or that, yeah, maybe leave it open and ask what did you contribute to

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 15:42, on Zulip):

agree

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:42, on Zulip):

there are also tools

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:42, on Zulip):

we should ping the dev-tools team :)

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:43, on Zulip):

cc @Manish Goregaokar and @Pascal

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:43, on Zulip):

I imagine that will just mean growing the list of "what did you contribute to" a bit

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:43, on Zulip):

but the rest stays largely the same? I don't want the survey to get too unfocused

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:47, on Zulip):

Do we want to include crates in the rust ecosystem that are not under the purview of rust-lang?

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:48, on Zulip):

I don't think so

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:48, on Zulip):

also what is "other external rust-lang crates"

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:48, on Zulip):

not sure :)

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:48, on Zulip):

I don't think so

regex? git2?

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:49, on Zulip):

oh, didn't know those were under rust-lang

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:49, on Zulip):

nvm

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:50, on Zulip):

perhaps we can merge "other crates" and "other external rust-lang crates" into "other rust-lang crates"?

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:52, on Zulip):

or even just make this:

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:52, on Zulip):

and just have an "other" option

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:53, on Zulip):

seems right

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:53, on Zulip):

I'm not sure if it's worth breaking out all the different tools

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:54, on Zulip):

I worry that when lists get too long people bail from surveys :)

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:55, on Zulip):

sounds good

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 15:55, on Zulip):

:+1:

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:55, on Zulip):

oh I wanted to mention that distinguishing

"Whats did you contribute to"

and

"What parts did you try to continute to"

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:55, on Zulip):

is probably not worth the effort

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:55, on Zulip):

i.e., we can just phrase it as

What did you contribute to or try to contribute to?

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 15:55, on Zulip):

and then we don't have to sync two lists and also merge two sets of data

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 16:31, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis @Santiago Pastorino I made some minor updates to consolidate some branches of the tree. I also added a few more possible pain points (I'm not sure how long this list should be)...

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 16:31, on Zulip):

If it looks good, I can try to whip up a google form

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:35, on Zulip):

checking it ...

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:37, on Zulip):

- Negative contributor experience (see below)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:37, on Zulip):

the below part is missing, right?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:38, on Zulip):

ahh I see

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:38, on Zulip):

it ties with What did you find were the main pain points? Check all that apply.

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:38, on Zulip):

maybe we can write ...

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:39, on Zulip):

- Negative contributor experience (see What did you find were the main pain points? question)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:39, on Zulip):

or something like that to be more concrete

Charles Lew (May 15 2020 at 16:40, on Zulip):

A few PRs / Many PRs / regularly, if i'm answering this survey(maybe i will), it's not very clear to me how many should be counted as the boundary between "a few" and "many" lol.

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 16:40, on Zulip):

Yes, I was wondering about that

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:40, on Zulip):

Santiago Pastorino said:

- Negative contributor experience (see What did you find were the main pain points? question)

@mark-i-m you edited it beautifully :heart:, I wasn't liking what I've said :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:41, on Zulip):

- What did you find were the main pain points? Check all that apply.

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:41, on Zulip):

I'd also add something that goes like, because it's hard and I couldn't understand anything :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:41, on Zulip):

or something like that

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:42, on Zulip):

maybe an option that says too hard/complex

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:42, on Zulip):

we can also encourage to provide some specific stuff in the free text

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:43, on Zulip):

like asking ...

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 16:43, on Zulip):

Is there something else you would like us to know? (you can elaborate more on your answers about Negative contributor experience)

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 16:44, on Zulip):

Charles Lew said:

A few PRs / Many PRs / regularly, if i'm answering this survey(maybe i will), it's not very clear to me how many should be counted as the boundary between "a few" and "many" lol.

How about if we change this to a frequency question:

How often do you contribute to ...?

Charles Lew (May 15 2020 at 16:44, on Zulip):

Maybe i'll write "building stage0 and stage1 and wait for more than half an hour just to bless a test case output is exhausting" in the free text area :)

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 16:47, on Zulip):

Santiago Pastorino said:

maybe an option that says too hard/complex

* lack of documentation
* wasn't able to get my technical questions answered

These were intended to break down why it's too hard/complex

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 16:47, on Zulip):

Though I think I see your point

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 16:48, on Zulip):

Charles Lew said:

Maybe i'll write "building stage0 and stage1 and wait for more than half an hour just to bless a test case output is exhausting" in the free text area :)

Do you feel that " * build/test times (not llvm) take too long" doesn't cover this concern?

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 16:48, on Zulip):

(also, please do write such things, as that's very helpful)

Charles Lew (May 15 2020 at 16:50, on Zulip):

Well, kind of, but if i made significant changes to the compiler, i think i deserve the waiting, but if i'm waiting just because a tiny change or fmt or something, it's a little... disappointing? i don't know...

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 16:52, on Zulip):

@Charles Lew I added "* frustrating to rebuild after small or trivial changes". Does that seem better?

Charles Lew (May 15 2020 at 16:52, on Zulip):

Yes, indeed, thanks!

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 17:17, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis @Santiago Pastorino Here is a draft: https://forms.gle/fRTqisBVY5hHXUaf8

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 17:17, on Zulip):

can you share edit permissons?

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 17:18, on Zulip):

Oh, yeah, I just realized I posted the consumer version

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 17:18, on Zulip):

can you PM me an email address?

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 17:23, on Zulip):

(btw, please don't submit responses yet, unless you are helping to test things)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 17:52, on Zulip):

if I answer no to the first question the next question I see is What parts of Rust did you contribute to or try to contribute to? (check all that apply) *

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 17:52, on Zulip):

I guess that question should be asked if you say not but I did try to contribute, no?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 17:53, on Zulip):

I guess if you answer just plain no, I'm not sure what else to ask ?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 17:54, on Zulip):

well I guess we want the questions we are seeing but maybe they should read a bit differently

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 17:54, on Zulip):

like If you were to contribute, what you would like to contribute to?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 17:55, on Zulip):

I'm not sure if we can change titles in google form depending on what was answered in the first question

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 17:55, on Zulip):

so we can have this What parts of Rust did you contribute to or try to contribute to? (check all that apply) but asked different, depending on what was answered

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 17:55, on Zulip):

@mark-i-m do what I'm saying make sense to you?

ecstatic-morse (May 15 2020 at 18:06, on Zulip):

Hey @mark-i-m have you considered asking what resources (e.g. CONTRIBUTING.md, rustc-dev-guide, discord, etc.) people used to learn how to contribute?

ecstatic-morse (May 15 2020 at 18:09, on Zulip):

I think we would benefit from a more "walkthrough" style CONTRIBUTING.md. Maybe even split into different documents; one for writing documentation, one for filing bugs, one for libs changes, etc. Like, the "writing documentation" takes quite a bit of scrolling to get through. We would link to these from the dev guide to reduce duplication of effort.

ecstatic-morse (May 15 2020 at 18:11, on Zulip):

I think it's beneficial to separate the dev guide, which contains all the information you need to understand the compiler, from the steps needed to make simple changes, since I expect some people that just want the second feel overwhelmed by the first.

ecstatic-morse (May 15 2020 at 18:12, on Zulip):

I could be wrong about this, though. The survey question I proposed would help decide.

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:17, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino That's doable (and we are already doing it a bit). Mainly it wasn't clear if it was worth the effort to change the wording but then have to keep the options in sync.

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

One thing is that if you answer "no" to the first question, it might make sense to just ask "is there something else..."

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 18:18, on Zulip):

didn't get what you meant

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:19, on Zulip):

ecstatic-morse said:

I think it's beneficial to separate the dev guide, which contains all the information you need to understand the compiler, from the steps needed to make simple changes, since I expect some people that just want the second feel overwhelmed by the first.

This is actually something we are working on as a wg these days... so that's good feedback to hear

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

ecstatic-morse said:

Hey mark-i-m have you considered asking what resources (e.g. CONTRIBUTING.md, rustc-dev-guide, discord, etc.) people used to learn how to contribute?

Hmmm... I like this idea.

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:20, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino I meant that if you answer "no" then you just skip to the end of the survey and all you see is "is there something else you want to tell us" and that's it

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 18:23, on Zulip):

yeah thought about that but it may be weird

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 18:24, on Zulip):

I think asking those questions but written them a bit differently would be better

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 18:25, on Zulip):

mainly to not make it read like "did you contribute to rust?" -> "No" ... "What did you contribute to?" :)

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:25, on Zulip):

Yeah, I see what you mean

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 18:25, on Zulip):

what's why I've said, maybe asking If you were to contribute, what would you contribute to?

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:26, on Zulip):

Also, the phrasing of the first question makes it seem like you should answer "no" if you are currently just learning

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 18:26, on Zulip):

and then what do you feel would be your main challenges to do so?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 18:26, on Zulip):

something like that

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:26, on Zulip):

which might discourage some responses

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 18:26, on Zulip):

yep

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

I would like to try to avoid duplicating parts of the form (for the sake of time/maintenance)

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:27, on Zulip):

if we can find a satisfactory way of wording things, that is

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:28, on Zulip):

What if we said something like "What parts of Rust are you most interested in contributing to/have you contributed to?"

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:29, on Zulip):

And "What did you find were the main pain points or barriers?"

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:53, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino I rearranged some things a bit:

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 18:53, on Zulip):

Let me know what you think!

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 19:54, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino I've add some short text in the hackmd that we could use as an inside rust blog post to announce it

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 20:03, on Zulip):

let me read it

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 20:08, on Zulip):

left two comments but I may not be the best on how to correctly phrase this :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 20:09, on Zulip):

I would change are not paid to are volunteers.

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 20:09, on Zulip):

and

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 20:09, on Zulip):

those who have not yet made contributions to those who want to contribute but were not able to do it yet

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 21:28, on Zulip):

@Santiago Pastorino @mark-i-m sorry I was busy with some things, what's the status now?

Santiago Pastorino (May 15 2020 at 21:38, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis I'd say if you want give it a last check to the survey (https://forms.gle/fRTqisBVY5hHXUaf8), do all the possible flows and check the message that Mark wrote (https://hackmd.io/uNiFtiwkQJ-cMkGcFypGFw?view#Inside-Rust-Blog-post) to spread the word about this

nikomatsakis (May 15 2020 at 21:59, on Zulip):

ok, I took a shot at writing my own draft post -- see this section

mark-i-m (May 15 2020 at 22:52, on Zulip):

I like Niko's version best

Santiago Pastorino (May 16 2020 at 03:13, on Zulip):

looks good to me too :+1:

Félix Fischer (May 16 2020 at 08:34, on Zulip):

Hey I love this initiative.
I think that all my pain points were among the options, so I feel that you guys have done a good job enumerating those things

Félix Fischer (May 16 2020 at 08:35, on Zulip):

Also, and this is not related to the content of the form... yo, that font is pretty. The presentation in general is. Kudos to whoever made it, I think it looks real good :heart:

mark-i-m (May 16 2020 at 21:01, on Zulip):

Haha, I can't claim credit for that... Thank Google, I guess :)

Manish Goregaokar (May 18 2020 at 00:41, on Zulip):

Do you think "How often have you contributed?" should be "What was the frequency of contribution when you were actively contributing?" or something? I always find these questions weird for projects I used to be super active on and am not anymore, and we ask about current activity as well so we can be clearer here

Manish Goregaokar (May 18 2020 at 00:42, on Zulip):

perhaps keep the heading with a subheading "if no longer active, use your rough level of activity when you were active"

Manish Goregaokar (May 18 2020 at 00:44, on Zulip):

For "What parts of Rust are you interested in contributing to? (check all that apply)", should that section instead be "What parts of Rust that you have not yet contributed to are you interested in contributing to?" Or is it really "are interested in contributing to "

Manish Goregaokar (May 18 2020 at 00:44, on Zulip):

as in, are we trying to find things people want to work on but haven't yet for whatever reason, or just gauge interest

Manish Goregaokar (May 18 2020 at 00:45, on Zulip):

"What did you find were the main pain points or barriers to contributing? (check all that apply)" perhaps should not be a mandatory question?

Manish Goregaokar (May 18 2020 at 00:45, on Zulip):

most of these probably shouldn't, but this is a leading question so absolutely should not be :)

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 17:32, on Zulip):

Hmm... I will have to chew on that. Our goal was to capture both what people have worked on and didn't like and what people have not worked on because they ran into/are running into some roadblock.

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 17:35, on Zulip):

Manish Goregaokar said:

perhaps keep the heading with a subheading "if no longer active, use your rough level of activity when you were active"

Done.

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 17:37, on Zulip):

Manish Goregaokar said:

For "What parts of Rust are you interested in contributing to? (check all that apply)", should that section instead be "What parts of Rust that you have not yet contributed to are you interested in contributing to?" Or is it really "are interested in contributing to "

I guess, since this question only appears to people who have stated that they are interesting/trying to contribute but have not yet, they are the same question, no? I guess I'm not quite seeing the nuance you are pointing at.

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 17:39, on Zulip):

Manish Goregaokar said:

most of these probably shouldn't, but this is a leading question so absolutely should not be :)

could you elaborate more? One would think it was the opposite. Also, my experience in the past with surveys is that if you make everything optional, people simply don't answer them.

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 17:39, on Zulip):

Getting a lot of sparse responses is not helpful

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 18:04, on Zulip):

(I think @Carol (Nichols || Goulding) left some comments too)

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:25, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Where? Could you point me to them, please?

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:31, on Zulip):

Oh, I see. There are edits in the hackmd

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:32, on Zulip):

Ah, the hackmd is also not synced with the google form, where I had made some other edits

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:32, on Zulip):

Let me sync them now

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:46, on Zulip):

Ok, I have updated the hackmd. Let's make that the canonical version of the survey until things settle

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:48, on Zulip):

@Carol (Nichols || Goulding) and @Manish Goregaokar Sorry, could you take another look? I didn't realize y'all were looking at the hackmd.

LeSeulArtichaut (May 18 2020 at 20:49, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

Ok, I have updated the hackmd. Let's make that the canonical version of the survey until things settle

Yes, or beware of the merge conflicts :big_smile:

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:49, on Zulip):

Some more specific things:

Manish Goregaokar (May 18 2020 at 20:49, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

I guess, since this question only appears to people who have stated that they are interesting/trying to contribute but have not yet, they are the same question, no? I guess I'm not quite seeing the nuance you are pointing at.

oh, missed that

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:51, on Zulip):
Manish Goregaokar (May 18 2020 at 20:51, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

Manish Goregaokar said:

most of these probably shouldn't, but this is a leading question so absolutely should not be :)

could you elaborate more? One would think it was the opposite. Also, my experience in the past with surveys is that if you make everything optional, people simply don't answer them.

What should someone who has not had any trouble contributing do here?

My experience with the Rust survey is the opposite. People are happy to share stuff, otherwise they wouldn't be filling in the survey at all. Most things should be optional so people who don't feel like they have a concrete answer don't have to pick something at random

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:52, on Zulip):

@Manish Goregaokar Yeah, I think I was looking at the google form and you were looking at the hackmd which was not synced. Sorry about the confusion

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:53, on Zulip):

Ah, I see what you mean

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:53, on Zulip):

I guess that possibility didn't occur to me. In my mind, I assumed that everyone has encountered something on that list...

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:54, on Zulip):

I guess I will trust your experience more than mine. Possibly it is just a difference of audiences

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:56, on Zulip):

@Carol (Nichols || Goulding) I am curious what you see as the difference between "people were unfriendly" and "I felt unwelcome"? Perhaps we can sharpen them a bit more so that we know what people mean when they check either box.

mark-i-m (May 18 2020 at 20:58, on Zulip):

One last thing:

Only members of the Compiler Team (and other teams?) will be able to view the full results

This is a good question. I assumed that I would help, but I'm not formally on the compiler team (though I am a WG colead). Are there any preferences here?

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 21:37, on Zulip):

Hmm, I don't think we need to narrow it that way

nikomatsakis (May 18 2020 at 21:38, on Zulip):

I would say "only team members or people specifically helping administer the survey" or something

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 12:43, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) I am curious what you see as the difference between "people were unfriendly" and "I felt unwelcome"? Perhaps we can sharpen them a bit more so that we know what people mean when they check either box.

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 12:43, on Zulip):

ugh

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 12:43, on Zulip):

sorry I suck at zulip

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 12:44, on Zulip):

I saw "I felt unwelcome" as something that might not involve other people at all

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 12:44, on Zulip):

like "i felt like the contributor docs weren't written for someone at my skill level, so I must not be welcome here"

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 12:45, on Zulip):

or "I saw other people having a heated discussion, so I didn't feel welcome to jump in"

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 12:45, on Zulip):

I'm not sure how to clarify :-/

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 12:47, on Zulip):

I also added the "issue" question because I see opening and triaging issues as contributing to the compiler, not sure if yinz agree for the purposes of this survey

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 12:48, on Zulip):

I mostly don't want this survey posted around and people to comment on twitter or whatever saying "ugh the Rust folks don't see other kinds of contribution as valid"

simulacrum (May 20 2020 at 12:51, on Zulip):

I would say yes, we are interested in opening and triaging issues, but it may not be the best fit for this survey -- they feel like pretty different tasks to me, needing a different set of questions

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 20 2020 at 13:21, on Zulip):

Maybe just add a paragraph to the blog post and/or the intro of the google form saying "we value many different kinds of contributions, but this survey's purpose is to identify and eliminate barriers to entry for code contributions" and then leave out the issue question

nikomatsakis (May 20 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

I like that suggestion

nikomatsakis (May 20 2020 at 15:34, on Zulip):

I do want to be sure we don't give people the wrong impression on this point.

Santiago Pastorino (May 20 2020 at 19:58, on Zulip):

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) said:

sorry I suck at zulip

you will get better over time and love it :)

Santiago Pastorino (May 20 2020 at 19:59, on Zulip):

nikomatsakis said:

I do want to be sure we don't give people the wrong impression on this point.

completely agree :+1: on Carol suggestion too

mark-i-m (May 21 2020 at 21:18, on Zulip):

Santiago Pastorino said:

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) said:

sorry I suck at zulip

you will get better over time and love it :)

Hehe, you will get better at it... but _love it_? Not sure about that

mark-i-m (May 21 2020 at 21:19, on Zulip):

Thanks for the comments! That makes sense. I had also wondered about that with regards to e.g. organizing meetups, answering stackoverflow, etc. too

simulacrum (May 21 2020 at 21:19, on Zulip):

/me loves it :)

mark-i-m (May 21 2020 at 21:22, on Zulip):

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) said:

I saw "I felt unwelcome" as something that might not involve other people at all

Hmm... Would you say that "I didn't feel comfortable contributing to code or discussions" is more precise?

Santiago Pastorino (May 21 2020 at 21:27, on Zulip):

simulacrum said:

/me loves it :)

me too, from all the chat systems I've used this is by far the one that allows you to better follow discussions

mark-i-m (May 21 2020 at 21:36, on Zulip):

Ok, I have updated the hackmd

mark-i-m (May 21 2020 at 21:37, on Zulip):

It looks good to me. Shall we :ship: it? (Btw, I still like Niko's blog post best)

Santiago Pastorino (May 21 2020 at 22:35, on Zulip):

@mark-i-m :+1: agree with you, let's wait for Niko but I think this can be shipped with Niko's post

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 22 2020 at 12:20, on Zulip):

mark-i-m said:

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) said:

I saw "I felt unwelcome" as something that might not involve other people at all

Hmm... Would you say that "I didn't feel comfortable contributing to code or discussions" is more precise?

Yes, that sounds much better!

nikomatsakis (May 22 2020 at 13:47, on Zulip):

OK -- I think we should kick this off

nikomatsakis (May 22 2020 at 13:47, on Zulip):

Is there some final version to give a "final look over"?

mark-i-m (May 22 2020 at 22:39, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Let me update the actual form and get back to you

mark-i-m (May 22 2020 at 22:58, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Done. The google form is up to date

mark-i-m (May 22 2020 at 22:59, on Zulip):

I think I got everything (but please let me know if I missed someone's changes)

mark-i-m (May 22 2020 at 22:59, on Zulip):

Also, I dropped a few links because google forms doesn't seem to support them (i.e. I just left the text)

mark-i-m (May 24 2020 at 18:00, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Oh, one other thing: Should we add a para to the end of the blog post like "Please respond by <DATE>"?

nikomatsakis (May 26 2020 at 18:00, on Zulip):

@mark-i-m oh yes definitely :)

mark-i-m (May 26 2020 at 19:04, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Cool, I think this is ready. Does it make sense to make the deadline one month from the release of the survey?

nikomatsakis (May 26 2020 at 19:04, on Zulip):

hmm, either that or maybe 2 weeks or something

nikomatsakis (May 26 2020 at 19:04, on Zulip):

I would guess we'll have a bunch of people fill out pretty quickly and then almost none :)

simulacrum (May 26 2020 at 19:17, on Zulip):

I imagine we can also act on the output to some extent before the deadline, too, so I wouldn't worry too much about even necessarily setting one

simulacrum (May 26 2020 at 19:18, on Zulip):

(beyond setting expectations for when we'll stop checking)

mark-i-m (May 26 2020 at 19:36, on Zulip):

Ok, I just opened https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/601

mark-i-m (May 26 2020 at 19:37, on Zulip):

The survey form should be closed to submissions atm, so we should reopen it when ready

mark-i-m (May 26 2020 at 19:37, on Zulip):

And thanks to everyone on this thread that gave very helpful feedback on the form!

Santiago Pastorino (May 27 2020 at 02:36, on Zulip):

looks good!

Carol (Nichols || Goulding) (May 27 2020 at 15:42, on Zulip):

I'm going to mute t-compiler again, please @ me if you'd like me to see stuff! <3

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:28, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis Should we merge it and open the form? What's next?

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:28, on Zulip):

Yep let's do it

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:28, on Zulip):

want me to merge now?

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:31, on Zulip):

Sure, is there a reason not to?

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:32, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis I just unlocked the survey, I think we can merge now

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:35, on Zulip):

I don't see a rason not to

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:35, on Zulip):

merging now

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:35, on Zulip):

Thanks @mark-i-m for pushing on this!

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:35, on Zulip):

My pleasure :)

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:36, on Zulip):

Should we also announce on internals?

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:39, on Zulip):

sounds good to me!

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:40, on Zulip):

live https://blog.rust-lang.org/inside-rust/2020/05/27/contributor-survey.html

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:40, on Zulip):

the title looks a bit funny though

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:40, on Zulip):

Yep, was just about to type that

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:40, on Zulip):

also "the compiler team on behalf of the compiler team"

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:40, on Zulip):

Not sure what I did wrong, though... I copy/pasted from another entry

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:41, on Zulip):

usually you put your name there

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:41, on Zulip):

it probably looked funny on the other entry too

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:41, on Zulip):

Ah, my fork is out of date and the metadata format has changed

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:42, on Zulip):

if you want to post a PR with some

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:42, on Zulip):

quick tweaks, let me know

LeSeulArtichaut (May 27 2020 at 20:46, on Zulip):

Filled our the form and advertised the post on Reddit

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:46, on Zulip):

That was fast

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 20:46, on Zulip):

@nikomatsakis I filed https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/602 to fix the metadata

LeSeulArtichaut (May 27 2020 at 20:47, on Zulip):

Hehe, I was watching

nikomatsakis (May 27 2020 at 20:47, on Zulip):

merged

Josh Triplett (May 27 2020 at 21:18, on Zulip):

Minor typo in the survey: "libaries".

Josh Triplett (May 27 2020 at 21:19, on Zulip):

Is that fixable at this point?

LeSeulArtichaut (May 27 2020 at 21:24, on Zulip):

@mark-i-m

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 21:28, on Zulip):

Unfortunately, fixing it will make our lives a bit more difficult later, as google forms will consider it to be a different response

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 21:29, on Zulip):

I would prefer to leave it as-is

Santiago Pastorino (May 27 2020 at 21:34, on Zulip):

have we tweeted about this?

Santiago Pastorino (May 27 2020 at 21:34, on Zulip):

I see Niko did and rust account RTed

Santiago Pastorino (May 27 2020 at 21:34, on Zulip):

cool

mark-i-m (May 27 2020 at 21:35, on Zulip):

Cool, I was just about to ask (I'm not on twitter)

Félix Fischer (May 27 2020 at 21:54, on Zulip):

Yo, I just saw the final survey

Félix Fischer (May 27 2020 at 21:54, on Zulip):

That was a damn fine job

Félix Fischer (May 27 2020 at 21:54, on Zulip):

I really liked it

Félix Fischer (May 27 2020 at 21:54, on Zulip):

:)

Last update: Jun 04 2020 at 18:35UTC