Stream: t-compiler

Topic: anchoring to UTC time


nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:11, on Zulip):

So @RalfJ was making a good case for anchoring meetings to UTC time instead of Boston time -- the idea being that this way everyone can track their relative timezones to one thing (UTC). If everyone adopts this strategy for all meetings, it would be net easier than remembering N locales.

I'd be ok with altering the compiler meeting to be anchored to UTC instead of Boston time, though I think that I personally will always rely on calendar software to figure out what the heck is going on :P

I know we discussed in the meeting but I am re-opening the topic because maybe anchoring to UTC is a good "global policy" to try and enact for the Rust project — but it works best if everyone uses it. (Otherwise, for example, the UCG meeting will change and create conflict with compiler team meeting, since it follows immediately afterwards.)

Other meetings that would be affected: NLL and trait meetings

(cc @WG-compiler-nll, @WG-compiler-traits, @T-compiler )

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:12, on Zulip):

maybe anchoring to UTC is a good "global policy" to try and enact for the Rust project

To be clear, I'm just saying "maybe we should adopt for compiler team + associated working groups"

tmandry (Oct 25 2018 at 16:15, on Zulip):

I support this

nagisa (Oct 25 2018 at 16:15, on Zulip):

To me it is way better if I know that the meetings are always 17:00 to 18:00 my time except during those few weeks of DST unification.

nagisa (Oct 25 2018 at 16:16, on Zulip):

Anchoring to UTC would make meetings be one time half of the year and some other time other half of the year

nagisa (Oct 25 2018 at 16:16, on Zulip):

(unless we end up changing the UTC time every half year, at which point it kinda sorta loses most of its purpose?)

nagisa (Oct 25 2018 at 16:17, on Zulip):

/me does not use calendars for scheduling, doesn’t have much things to schedule after all.

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:18, on Zulip):

To me it is way better if I know that the meetings are always 17:00 to 18:00 my time except during those few weeks of DST unification.

this has always been my opinion too (but I had temporarily forgotten)

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:18, on Zulip):

a decent counter point :)

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:19, on Zulip):

I miss the days when the US + majority-of-the-rest-of-the-world transitioned at the same time

davidtwco (Oct 25 2018 at 16:20, on Zulip):

UK goes backwards on the 28th by an hour (I think), we'll be on UTC, it stays that way until May (I think). As I understand it, for me, regardless of where it is anchored, it'll shift twice a year.

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:23, on Zulip):

/me doesn't understand how that can be unless .. UK doesn't use DST in the same way?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:23, on Zulip):

but I believe you :)

davidtwco (Oct 25 2018 at 16:23, on Zulip):

I might be totally wrong.

davidtwco (Oct 25 2018 at 16:23, on Zulip):

I'm not a calendar.

nagisa (Oct 25 2018 at 16:26, on Zulip):

If we anchor to UTC: Everybody has meeting time shift twice a year, at the same time their respective DST switch occurs.
If we anchor to Boston: we (europeans) have meeting time shift 4 times a year, once when European DST switch occurs and once when American DST switch occurs (and then again half a year later).

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:26, on Zulip):

so basically:

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:26, on Zulip):

I guess the key point is changing 4 times might in some ways be more convenient, right?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:27, on Zulip):

since the majority of the year it is as a consistent (local) time

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:27, on Zulip):

/me shrugs

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:27, on Zulip):

this definitely seems like something that would be best to decide as broadly as possible =)

davidtwco (Oct 25 2018 at 16:28, on Zulip):

If it is anchored to UTC then places where there is no DST don't change at all right?

simulacrum (Oct 25 2018 at 16:28, on Zulip):

Isn't Europe or part of europe switching to no longer switching DST?

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:28, on Zulip):

If it is anchored to UTC then places where there is no DST don't change at all right?

confirm

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:28, on Zulip):

I've heard rumors @simulacrum

davidtwco (Oct 25 2018 at 16:29, on Zulip):

Then if we anchor by UTC that means some people (lucky no-DST people) don't ever need to think about it, and the rest of us do. If we anchor by Boston, then everyone needs to think about it.

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:30, on Zulip):

Not wrong, though those categories are not equal in size (and maybe changing..?). I'm surprised EU would abandon DST, it is supposed to save a lot of energy costs. I imagine they're aware of that. :P

nagisa (Oct 25 2018 at 16:31, on Zulip):

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/31/eu-recommend-member-states-abolish-daylight-saving-time

nagisa (Oct 25 2018 at 16:32, on Zulip):

I don’t believe there has been a regulation/suggestion released by the EU commission, but it feels almost as if it has already happened and majority is in support of it.

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:32, on Zulip):

that's an argument in favor of anchoring to UTC I guess

nagisa (Oct 25 2018 at 16:33, on Zulip):

We can always decide otherwise when the actual abandonment occurs.

simulacrum (Oct 25 2018 at 16:34, on Zulip):

Generally I think the disadvantage is that anchoring to some UTC time means that the meeting time changes for everyone throughout the year -- that is, if you're available at 5-6pm in your local time and not before/after then you may be able to attend meetings for half a year or so

simulacrum (Oct 25 2018 at 16:35, on Zulip):

Though I suppose the reverse is also true

nagisa (Oct 25 2018 at 16:38, on Zulip):

I’m fairly confident majority of the people do observe(?) DST currently

simulacrum (Oct 25 2018 at 16:42, on Zulip):

I think that's probably true -- so with that in mind it somewhat might make sense to tie meeting time to some DST-observing timezone since then meeting time stays essentially constant throughout the year

simulacrum (Oct 25 2018 at 16:43, on Zulip):

(except for the week in between switches, apparently)

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:44, on Zulip):

maybe the right answer is: leave it as is until EU states start to abandon DST

nikomatsakis (Oct 25 2018 at 16:44, on Zulip):

and then revisit the question

Vadim Petrochenkov (Oct 25 2018 at 18:18, on Zulip):

Google Calendar seems to successfully translate the meeting time to my local time, so I'm not not sure if anything changes for me with "anchoring meetings to UTC" (whatever that means).

DPC (Oct 25 2018 at 18:36, on Zulip):

UTC is a good move since it is independent of DST and also will be easier for people who travel to other place for meetings, conferences, etc

mw (Oct 26 2018 at 13:05, on Zulip):

I'm mildly against anchoring to UTC. It would mean that the meeting is at a different local time, depending on which half of the year we are in. I don't really see that as an improvement.

DPC (Oct 26 2018 at 13:27, on Zulip):

@mw that's true only if one of the 2 countries doesn't maintain DST or is in the Southern Hemisphere

mw (Oct 26 2018 at 13:38, on Zulip):

@DPC I thought UTC is always the same? So if the meeting is at 14:00 UTC, it would be at 15:00 local time for me in winter and at 16:00 local time in summer. While now it's always at 16:00 local time, except for the 2 weeks in fall and spring when Europe has already switched DST while the US hasn't yet.

DPC (Oct 26 2018 at 13:39, on Zulip):

true but that's assuming that UTC time for the meeting will be same in both seasons which I don't think will. So meeting might be at 14:00 UTC in summer and 13:00 in winter

nagisa (Oct 26 2018 at 13:42, on Zulip):

true but that's assuming that UTC time for the meeting will be same in both seasons which I don't think will. So meeting might be at 14:00 UTC in summer and 13:00 in winter

In which case anchoring to anything loses the whole purpose again, except now somebody also has to update the calendar.

mw (Oct 26 2018 at 14:03, on Zulip):

I interpreted "anchoring" as: it always at the same UTC time. In any case, I don't really care what we do here.

DPC (Oct 26 2018 at 14:31, on Zulip):

@nagisa fair but people still have to change their schedules either way to match UTC so it's fine either way.

nikomatsakis (Oct 26 2018 at 18:00, on Zulip):

I interpreted "anchoring" as: it always at the same UTC time. In any case, I don't really care what we do here.

this is indeed what I believe it meant :)

nikomatsakis (Oct 26 2018 at 18:00, on Zulip):

er, what I meant for it "to mean"

nikomatsakis (Oct 26 2018 at 18:00, on Zulip):

right now it effectively has two UTC times -- the switch is whenever the US changes :)

nikomatsakis (Oct 26 2018 at 18:01, on Zulip):

sounds like the "sorta consensus" here though is "keep the status quo", which wfm...

nikomatsakis (Oct 26 2018 at 18:01, on Zulip):

...or at least I didn't sense a lot of energy towards changing, in which case the "status quo" wins I guess :)

DPC (Oct 26 2018 at 21:48, on Zulip):

Ah misintepreted it.

RalfJ (Oct 28 2018 at 11:10, on Zulip):

I'm mildly against anchoring to UTC. It would mean that the meeting is at a different local time, depending on which half of the year we are in. I don't really see that as an improvement.

given that the relative offsets between US and Europe timezones are not constant (DST shifts happen at different time) and we have sizeable communities in both areas (and elsewhere, too, though less so and anyway this is enough to make the point), the meeting will be at different local time for many people sometimes anyway. Currently we take the US-centric approach so to know when that time is different us Europeans have to know when DST starts/ends in Europe and in the US; if we anchored to the Europe DST shift it'd be vice versa for people in the US so that would be no better. UTC would be more "fair" in that everybody's DST is only their local problem.

However, I can see the argument that even with the current mess of the meeting shifting 4 times a year in European time, it's still the same time most weeks with 2 or 3 exceptions.

Last update: Nov 16 2019 at 01:30UTC