Stream: zulip

Topic: Crate stream prefix?


Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:20, on Zulip):

If a family of crates would like to have a stream to discuss their ongoing development and maintenance, what would be the appropriate naming for such a stream? crates/cratename perhaps?

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:25, on Zulip):

What family? We currently generally strive for a policy of only "official" discussion happening within this Zulip instance

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:27, on Zulip):

ansi_term, which is rather high-profile (anything using clap depends on it, as do various other things).

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:27, on Zulip):

It's moving to group maintenance.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:27, on Zulip):

It seemed like this might be a reasonable place for discussions about its ongoing development and maintenance.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:30, on Zulip):

I think basically I'd probably say that if it's not under rust-lang we shouldn't have it here, though note that zulip is free for open source. Note that all that is technically needed, IMO, to move something under the rust-lang umbrella is for a team member (doesn't have to be libs) to champion that and be involved with the project they're asking to be moved in

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:30, on Zulip):

(Ideally we'd also have some rough assurances of "nice community membership" and such, but I don't think that's a concern here)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:30, on Zulip):

That's exactly the conversation I was currently having with @Pietro Albini. :)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:30, on Zulip):

I'm becoming a maintainer of it.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:31, on Zulip):

Ah. In that case, it seems fine IMO to move it under the rust-lang umbrella and to create a stream here

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:32, on Zulip):

I don't want to impose if this is something that isn't normally done. I personally think it's a good idea, though.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:32, on Zulip):

We don't really have policies in place, but I think it's a reasonable ask; IMO Zulip handles "lots of streams" and streams that not everyone wants to see well.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:33, on Zulip):

That makes sense.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:33, on Zulip):

e.g. on Discord I would say hard no because Discord does not handle streams well

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:33, on Zulip):

And ironically, Discord is where we've created lots of random channels.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:33, on Zulip):

But yeah, it doesn't handle "channels not everyone wants to see" very well.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:33, on Zulip):

heh, you're not wrong :)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:34, on Zulip):

Do you think that crates/ansi_term would be a reasonable stream name?

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:34, on Zulip):

I'm happy to create the stream and transfer the repo for you though

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:34, on Zulip):

I can create the stream; I just wanted a second opinion.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:34, on Zulip):

Yeah, that seems reasonable

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:34, on Zulip):

And as for repository transfer, working on arranging that (by gaining admin permissions to the existing repo).

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:34, on Zulip):

Ah okay, wasn't sure if you had permissions (you should though)

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:34, on Zulip):

wait

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:35, on Zulip):

my understanding is that there wouldn't be a rust team maintaining that crate

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:35, on Zulip):

(josh pinged me in private about this)

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:35, on Zulip):

hm, oh, maybe I misunderstood then -- I had thought that the group Josh spoke of would be a Rust team

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:36, on Zulip):

I should have clarified

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:36, on Zulip):

simulacrum said:

I think basically I'd probably say that if it's not under rust-lang we shouldn't have it here, though note that zulip is free for open source. Note that all that is technically needed, IMO, to move something under the rust-lang umbrella is for a team member (doesn't have to be libs) to champion that and be involved with the project they're asking to be moved in

^ I was going based on this.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:36, on Zulip):

I think I'm confused somehow.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:36, on Zulip):

I think the bar isn't super clear, fwiw

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:36, on Zulip):

/me nods.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:36, on Zulip):

I personally am fine with team members putting important projects that they're (helping) maintaining in rust-lang

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:37, on Zulip):

but I think there's not necessarily consensus on that

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:37, on Zulip):

I know there's precedent for it.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:37, on Zulip):

But if there's a reason why it might not be a good idea, I wouldn't want to misstep here.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:38, on Zulip):

The main thing we'd want to avoid, I think, is the impression that ansi_term is "blessed" as compared with the other similar crates

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:38, on Zulip):

which I guess if we did this would sort of be true

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:38, on Zulip):

(even if not really true, it could appear as such)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:38, on Zulip):

I don't think this would have that effect; that would reverse the cause-and-effect here.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:39, on Zulip):

It's not popular because we're putting it in rust-lang, it's already popular and widely used, and needs improved maintenance.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:39, on Zulip):

Not sure I follow? crates that have repositories under rust-lang appear blessed, right?

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:39, on Zulip):

also if we want to eventually have all permissions managed through the github teams and the team repo, it would be a bit weird to assign a team owning that repo

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:39, on Zulip):

I'm more so saying that I wouldn't want to create the impression that if you're choosing a crate you should "obviously" go for the one in rust-lang vs. the one in someotherperson

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:40, on Zulip):

Sure. In my opinion, they look blessed if they're put under rust-lang when they're not already widely used and popular in their own right.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:40, on Zulip):

@Pietro Albini Don't we already have a few repositories for which we do that?

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:41, on Zulip):

Hm, I think maybe we're speaking about different blessings

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:41, on Zulip):

I'm not sure if that's a good idea though

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:41, on Zulip):

/me is fine with going along with consensus here, and just wants to figure out what that consensus is. ;)

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:42, on Zulip):

@Pietro Albini say more?

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:42, on Zulip):

(what specifically isn't a good idea?)

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:42, on Zulip):

Don't we already have a few repositories for which we do that?

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:43, on Zulip):

oh, you mean you wouldn't take the precedent as a reason to go further?

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:43, on Zulip):

To clarify the "that", I was asking, don't we already have repositories on github.com/rust-lang that are maintained by people not otherwise defined by a governance team, and we have a list of those maintainers for which we grant the appropriate permissions?

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:44, on Zulip):

oh, you mean you wouldn't take the precedent as a reason to go further?

yeah, especially as we're moving torwards tightening permissions (with the team repo and the new access policy rfc)

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:45, on Zulip):

Hm, so kind of -- e.g. git2, backtrace

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:45, on Zulip):

If we did this, I would have assumed that there'd be a crate-ansi-term.toml or similar added to rust-lang/team, and it'd list the people who should have permissions to that repository, for automatic maintenance.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:45, on Zulip):

(Rather than hand-adding individual people to a repository's permissions.)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:45, on Zulip):

(And there should probably be a crate-git2.toml, similarly.)

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:46, on Zulip):

@simulacrum isn't git2 practically maintained by the cargo team?

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:46, on Zulip):

(Or just a crates.toml and put all of the individual crate maintainers in it.)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:46, on Zulip):

@Pietro Albini Not exactly. There's a set of people helping to maintain it, some of which are on the cargo team, I think?

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:46, on Zulip):

I don't think there's any formal declaration as such, and I would say more so that maybe "git2 is maintained mostly by Alex" would be my read

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:46, on Zulip):

(that may be outdated though)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:47, on Zulip):

@simulacrum Outdated, yes. Note that Alex is trying to stop maintaining git2, and others are trying to step up, though it's...a process. :)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:47, on Zulip):

/me is glad to have brought this up, as we should probably sort it out.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:48, on Zulip):

To the extent we already maintain crates in rust-lang, we should move to automated permission maintenance, whether we use that as precedent for other crates or not.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:48, on Zulip):

(I'm happy to help with that.)

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:49, on Zulip):

hmm, backtrace is fully managed by the libs team

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:50, on Zulip):

Ah, okay.

I would say that personally I would want the ideal state to be that rust-lang only contains projects that are "official" (e.g. have a Rust team backing them to some extent). For git2, for example, I could see us saying "this is a critical piece of Rust library ecosystem and we want to ensure its maintainership" or something like that. But that's a hard line to cut clearly...

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:50, on Zulip):

@Pietro Albini how do you come to that conclusion about backtrace?

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:51, on Zulip):

Screenshot-from-2020-05-03-22-51-08.png

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:51, on Zulip):

oh I would not go off of permissions

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:51, on Zulip):

that just means that whoever configured that found that the easiest thing to do

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:51, on Zulip):

I guess

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:52, on Zulip):

It also wouldn't surprise me if it's correct in that particular crate's case.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:52, on Zulip):

But we should check some other crate repos. What do git2's permissions look like?

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:52, on Zulip):

iirc backtrace is also used in the stdlib, so it'd make sense

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 20:52, on Zulip):

well to be clear I would not make any judgements based on permissions :)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:53, on Zulip):

(Absolutely; more trying to figure out the current practical state of some repos.)

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:53, on Zulip):

git2 is josh and ehuss

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:53, on Zulip):

And libz-sys?

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:56, on Zulip):

just you

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:56, on Zulip):

(Oh. I thought there were others on that one....)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:57, on Zulip):

/me should really work on that.

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:57, on Zulip):

honestly I don't see much point in having something not managed by the rust team in the rust-lang org

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:57, on Zulip):

"the rust team" meaning some existing Rust governance team or working group?

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:58, on Zulip):

yep

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 20:58, on Zulip):

(or a new working group under a governance team)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 20:59, on Zulip):

I certainly don't want to make more work for you and other infra folks, if that would be the net effect.

pksunkara (May 03 2020 at 20:59, on Zulip):

@Josh Triplett We moved away from ansi_term in clap v3 and are using BurntSushi's termcolor

pksunkara (May 03 2020 at 20:59, on Zulip):

And we will be recommending usage of console (I am the new maintainer) because we got console working on windows correctly too

pksunkara (May 03 2020 at 21:00, on Zulip):

while ansi_term doesn'

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 21:00, on Zulip):

@pksunkara Oh, huh. I didn't know clap had moved over.

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 21:00, on Zulip):

it's not really extra work for the infra team to have more repos in the org

pksunkara (May 03 2020 at 21:00, on Zulip):

Yeah, it had issues

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 21:01, on Zulip):

/me has been trying to fix those issues, including the Windows issues.

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 21:01, on Zulip):

/me moves that discussion to a separate thread.

pksunkara (May 03 2020 at 21:02, on Zulip):

We can continue at #wg-cli

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 21:02, on Zulip):

but I can't see the advantage of using the rust-lang org if a crate is not maintained by some team/wg in the rust governance

Pietro Albini (May 03 2020 at 21:02, on Zulip):

like, what's the problem of having a rust-ansi-term/ansi-term on github?

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 21:03, on Zulip):

I can certainly do that, and if the consensus is not to use rust-lang, that's what I'll be doing. But it seemed worth asking about what the right path would be in this case.

simulacrum (May 03 2020 at 21:05, on Zulip):

I think I'd disagree that there's no advantage to being in rust-lang (you get infra support, for one thing) but it's probably true that we want to be cautious about granting that when there's competition in the space some crate is in (e.g. ansi-term vs console vs termcolor etc)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 21:09, on Zulip):

Alright. That sounds like a pretty clear answer to me. :)

Josh Triplett (May 03 2020 at 21:09, on Zulip):

Thanks for helping talk this through. I'll plan on creating a separate org, then.

DPC (May 05 2020 at 10:30, on Zulip):

I was planning on creating a separate unofficial instance for various crates, so that each crate can occupy a stream and their users can opt in to whichever crate they prefer.

XAMPPRocky (May 05 2020 at 14:31, on Zulip):

@Josh Triplett I don't know if this relates to your specific case, but I've thought of project groups as the formal mechanism by which someone could say to a team "We need to maintain this project, and I'm willing to do it on a team's behalf".

pksunkara (May 05 2020 at 18:52, on Zulip):

I actually like this

Last update: Jun 05 2020 at 23:05UTC