Stream: general

Topic: libs team meetings and btree


Jake Goulding (Jan 07 2020 at 21:36, on Zulip):

Y'all in the wrong topic

simulacrum (Jan 07 2020 at 21:38, on Zulip):

switched into new topic :)

RalfJ (Jan 07 2020 at 21:38, on Zulip):

thanks @simulacrum :)

Jake Goulding (Jan 07 2020 at 21:39, on Zulip):

I get the feeling that libs is overworked and understaffed. And that's totally believable.

RalfJ (Jan 07 2020 at 21:39, on Zulip):

yeah

Lokathor (Jan 07 2020 at 21:50, on Zulip):

How would we go about improving their staff situation?

RalfJ (Jan 07 2020 at 21:51, on Zulip):

naively: finding more people that want to to libs work?

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 21:55, on Zulip):

I don't think there's a lack of folks wanting to do libs work

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 21:56, on Zulip):

(and I don't think libs is more overworked and overstaffed than other teams really -- except for the compiler team maybe, which is well staffed)

Lokathor (Jan 07 2020 at 22:17, on Zulip):

So then, how can we better connect the work to do with the time and willingness to do said work and also the appropriate authorization to do said work.

Lokathor (Jan 07 2020 at 22:18, on Zulip):

i regularly hear about "so much to do, so little time", but a lot less does it seem to come up how to increase staff so that (effectively) more time exists

simulacrum (Jan 07 2020 at 22:24, on Zulip):

@Lokathor I think speaking so vaguely is unlikely to be helpful

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:25, on Zulip):

it's not just a matter of staffing; for example, we could add a bunch of new members to the language team, but then the coherency of the language direction is impacted and it could risk in gridlock; you need to somehow increase the number of work hours but at the same time not add a bunch of new decision-makers

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:25, on Zulip):

the compiler team handles this better than most, I think

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:26, on Zulip):

I do think that the libs team seems poorly organized as compared to the other teams

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:26, on Zulip):

they are ostensibly still on IRC

simulacrum (Jan 07 2020 at 22:26, on Zulip):

well, it's also true that compiler team makes few big decisions (and non revertible ones)

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:26, on Zulip):

yep, also true

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:27, on Zulip):

although committing to an implementation strategy can have long-term consequences (like MIR)

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:27, on Zulip):

but they are more revertible

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:28, on Zulip):

still; the libs team does accept new FCPs all the time

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:29, on Zulip):

hopefully now that Lukas has joined things will be better

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 22:54, on Zulip):

maybe the distinction between standard library maintenance and standard library evolution is worth making

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 22:55, on Zulip):

imagine if, instead of a lang and a compiler team, we would only have one team for both

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 22:56, on Zulip):

that's kind of the situation the libs team currently is in

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:57, on Zulip):

library maintenance of the standard library could just be the compiler team

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 22:58, on Zulip):

also an option

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:58, on Zulip):

(in fact I think they should already feel free to do such changes)

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 22:58, on Zulip):

for the PRs that @RalfJ mentioned, it would mean that the appropriate team to ping would be the compiler team, and not the libs team

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:58, on Zulip):

although I don't think t-compiler has preparedness for this

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 22:58, on Zulip):

right now

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 22:59, on Zulip):

sure, it probably would require some libs team members to be in the compiler team

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 22:59, on Zulip):

hopefully now that Lukas has joined things will be better

All the pressure! °_°

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 22:59, on Zulip):

Hello everyone! First time on Zulip. Thanks for the ping. The UI still confuses me.

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 23:00, on Zulip):

/me holds in criticism of bad UX of Zulip

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 23:02, on Zulip):

@RalfJ I had a look at both of these PRs but ultimately didn't feel useful enough to comment. I don't know about those parts of the code. If you'd like to I can try starting to understand everything about the code to review the PR.

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 23:02, on Zulip):

I'm also kind of not happy with T-libs not having a dedicated chat. But not sure how much I can really do as a new member of the team. Need to get used to everything first anyway...

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 23:03, on Zulip):

@Lukas Kalbertodt it would be good if the team just chose one of Zulip or Discord

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 23:03, on Zulip):

having more chat platforms is a bad idea

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 23:04, on Zulip):

@centril Yep. Someone probably just have to decide it.

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 23:05, on Zulip):

I hope that's not "off topic" here, but in the topic linked at the very top of this topic, it is mentioned that there is a t-lang channel/stream here on Zulip? Where can I find it? Where can I find the streams for all the other teams? I only see "announce", "general", "new members" and "zulip".

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 23:06, on Zulip):

@Lukas Kalbertodt there's a :gear: to the right of "STREAMS"

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 23:06, on Zulip):

there should be a "Search streams" above announce

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 23:06, on Zulip):

@centril OMG thank you

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 23:08, on Zulip):

intuitive, eh? ;)

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 23:10, on Zulip):

For what is worth, the Zulip team is very responsive

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 23:10, on Zulip):

@centril It's kind of amusing seeing how some of the smartest people I know of completely struggle to understand a chat app. I'd say that's not a good sign for how user friendly the app is :P

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 23:10, on Zulip):

I opened an issue about this, and at least now all "settings" icons are a :gear: (before they used different icons)

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 23:11, on Zulip):

Although Zulip seems to be cool once you get used to it. I might propose just creating a channel here to the others via mail soonish.

Lokathor (Jan 07 2020 at 23:11, on Zulip):

@simulacrum i was being as concrete and clear as I knew how to be at the time.

simulacrum (Jan 07 2020 at 23:11, on Zulip):

Sure, yes :) No worries :)

centril (Jan 07 2020 at 23:11, on Zulip):

@Lukas Kalbertodt it's different skillsets though; Zulip is something that feels like a very linux-y engineer I-don't-understand-interaction-design UX

simulacrum (Jan 07 2020 at 23:11, on Zulip):

@Lukas Kalbertodt I want to say that I've heard discussions to that effect already from others libs :)

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 23:11, on Zulip):

also, before if you open a stream with 10000 unread messages, the left part of the UI would explode - i opened an issue and in a couple of days someone implemented the "more topics" API

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 23:12, on Zulip):

so if you find anything about the UI suboptimal, just open an issue

gnzlbg (Jan 07 2020 at 23:12, on Zulip):

they triage low-hanging fruit pretty aggressively

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 07 2020 at 23:13, on Zulip):

@simulacrum by "libs" you mean "members of the libs team"? Otherwise I can't parse your sentence :/

simulacrum (Jan 07 2020 at 23:18, on Zulip):

yes,

RalfJ (Jan 08 2020 at 09:12, on Zulip):

I agree that Zulip has some pretty bad UI design. but discord's deficiencies are worse IMO -- the UI is superficially better, but some deeper things are broken. like, when scrolling the backlog I have to idea how to figure out the day of the message I am looking at. or, email notifications are just not working -- I disabled them once by accident, it is impossible to enable them again. or, private messages are in a totally different place than channels. or, managing which channels of a "server" you care for is a mess. or, there's no good way to browse where I was @mentioned when I come back after a few weeks, the "mentions" list only goes back 2 weeks or so. I could go on.

RalfJ (Jan 08 2020 at 09:13, on Zulip):

anyway, sorry for the rant.^^
IMO it doesnt really matter which chat the libs team is on, as long as there is one^^ I thought their IRC isnt used any more?

XAMPPRocky (Jan 08 2020 at 11:34, on Zulip):

@simulacrum Could we create a new topic for the Zulip UX discussion? :slight_smile:

simulacrum (Jan 08 2020 at 11:40, on Zulip):

I think we can do so in #zulip there's no need for a stream

XAMPPRocky (Jan 08 2020 at 11:49, on Zulip):

@simulacrum I'm not sure I understand? I mean pulling the discussion about Zulip out of the discussion about the libs team and into its own topic. Not creating a new stream.

simulacrum (Jan 08 2020 at 11:49, on Zulip):

Oh yeah for sure. I think you can do it? I'm on my phone right now

simulacrum (Jan 08 2020 at 11:53, on Zulip):

Hm, actually, I think moving cross stream isn't possible

simulacrum (Jan 08 2020 at 11:54, on Zulip):

But a new topic should be

XAMPPRocky (Jan 08 2020 at 11:54, on Zulip):

@simulacrum Unfortunately not, otherwise I would have just done it. :stuck_out_tongue: cant-edit.png

Andrew Gallant (Jan 09 2020 at 00:11, on Zulip):

Personally, I've never been involved much with std matters. That's why i removed myself from fcp tickboxes so long ago. I spend much more time on ecosystem stuff. It's an interesting idea to perhaps have different focuses within the libs team, which i think is already true, but perhaps implicit. Idk what the proper organizational structure is. (This is also my first time on Zulip.)

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 00:40, on Zulip):

What would you see as the job of an "ecosystem libs" team?

Andrew Gallant (Jan 09 2020 at 00:45, on Zulip):

Not sure. For me personally, i spend time maintaining and building crates outside of std. I suspect things like the API guidelines and generally promoting idiomatic code to fall under that category as well. Maybe more stuff.

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 00:50, on Zulip):

Just building stuff outside of std doesn't really need a team though, does it? That's "just" development.

API guidelines / documenting and promoting idioms seems reasonable though.

centril (Jan 09 2020 at 00:51, on Zulip):

documenting is T-docs atm I think

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 00:52, on Zulip):

To be clear, I think it would make sense for there to be a "std team" that applies a pretty high standards bar and some other group as well. Things that are common across crates can be raised up to the std team.

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 00:53, on Zulip):

I also should be clear that I've not the time for either of these teams, so I have very little say in how they look or what they do. :wink:

Andrew Gallant (Jan 09 2020 at 00:53, on Zulip):

@Jake Goulding Not sure i would agree with that take, but I'm on mobile and it's late. Maintenance of important crates seems like something that a team could manage to me.

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 00:54, on Zulip):

@Andrew Gallant ah, you know that's a good point. I was forgetting about all the crates that are under the rust-lang umbrella

centril (Jan 09 2020 at 00:55, on Zulip):

@Jake Goulding note that many of those crates are used by the compiler for internal consumption and are really for the compiler team to review and manage

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 00:56, on Zulip):

But would it make sense for e.g. regex or serde to be under the purview of that group? I would think no / the maintainers wouldn't want such.

Andrew Gallant (Jan 09 2020 at 00:56, on Zulip):

Yes, but not all. And the set isn't fixed.

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 00:56, on Zulip):

@centril indeed, I was implicitly ignoring those.

Andrew Gallant (Jan 09 2020 at 00:57, on Zulip):

I guess i see my maintenance of regex as part of my library team duties. At least, that's how it started many moons ago. Keep in mind that I'm not expressing a strong opinion. Just brainstorming.

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 00:58, on Zulip):

And I'm of the opinion that I don't really want de facto standard libraries / "this crate is the only crate to use".

Selfishly, as soon as there's a rust-lang/error-handler, SNAFU is as good as dead, for example.

Andrew Gallant (Jan 09 2020 at 00:59, on Zulip):

I don't think anything I've expressed is in intrinsic conflict with that...

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 00:59, on Zulip):

But I could also see semi-fundamental traits in such an organization, (whatever happened to http anyway?)

XAMPPRocky (Jan 09 2020 at 07:19, on Zulip):

@Jake Goulding Well it's being used in hyper, tokio, and actix. Just from looking at its reverse dependencies. https://crates.io/crates/http/reverse_dependencies

XAMPPRocky (Jan 09 2020 at 07:22, on Zulip):

It's being maintained by https://github.com/hyperium

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 09 2020 at 07:27, on Zulip):

Just FYI: there is a #t-libs stream now! CC @bstrie @Lokathor @RalfJ (I have no idea whether you would have gotten a notification, hence explicit ping)

Lokathor (Jan 09 2020 at 07:28, on Zulip):

It was in the announce stream, but not everyone follows that necessarily

Lukas Kalbertodt (Jan 09 2020 at 07:44, on Zulip):

Ah, right. Thought it would be useful to mention it in this topic as well.

Jake Goulding (Jan 09 2020 at 13:55, on Zulip):

@XAMPPRocky that’s good to hear. Surprised it’s not in more though. Maybe it’s used indirectly

Simon Sapin (Jan 09 2020 at 15:58, on Zulip):

does anyone know where the libs team has their meetings?

We haven’t had regularly-scheduled video meetings for a while. #rust-libs on IRC was the place to have information discussion, and we’re moving to t-libs here on Zulip: https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/the-library-team-is-moving-from-irc-to-zulip/11598

Simon Sapin (Jan 09 2020 at 16:04, on Zulip):

library maintenance of the standard library could just be the compiler team

If by maintenance you mean of implementation details such as bug fixes or perf improvement, then yes I think that compiler team members or in fact any reviewer who feels comfortable reviewing a given PR should feel free to help out without necessarily blocking on T-libs approval. For anything that adds/extends/modifies a public API however T-libs still has a role to play. You mentioned coherency of the language direction for T-lang, this is similar.

centril (Jan 09 2020 at 19:10, on Zulip):

@Simon Sapin what you wrote is basically how I see it also

XAMPPRocky (Jan 11 2020 at 12:12, on Zulip):

@Jake Goulding Well that was just the notable mentions. It has about 300~ dependent crates so it seems like it is being used.

Last update: Jun 04 2020 at 17:35UTC